Someone has a list of scholars who believe in Jesus as a real person in history?

by TJ Curioso 40 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • mind blown
    mind blown

    I don''t know according to this, which I just found, lots of different thoughts on Wiki...

    Codex Sinaiticus and Vaticanus

    Constantin von Tischendorf, discoverer of Codex Sinaiticus, believed that Sinaiticus and Vaticanus were among these fifty Bibles prepared by Eusebius in Caesarea. According to him, they were written with three (as Vaticanus) or four columns per page (as Sinaiticus). [ 8 ] [ 9 ] Tishendorf's view was supported by Pierre Batiffol. [ 10 ]

    Frederick Henry Ambrose Scrivener rejected Tischendorf's speculation because of differences between the two manuscripts. In Sinaiticus, the text of the Gospels is divided according to the Ammonian Sections with references to the Eusebian Canons, but Vaticanus used the older system of division. Vaticanus was prepared in a format of 5 folios in one quire, but Sinaiticus had 8 folios. According to Scrivener, Eusebian Bibles contained three or four folios per quire (Scrivener used a Latin version of Valesius). Scrivener stated that the Eusebian is unclear and should not be used for a doubtful theory. [ 11 ]

    Westcott and Hort argued the order of biblical books on the Eusebian list of the canonical books, quoted by Eusebius in "Ecclesiastical History" (III, 25), is different than every surviving manuscript. Probably none of the 50 copies survive today. [ 12 ]

    Caspar René Gregory believed that Vaticanus and Sinaiticus were written in Caesarea, and they could belong to the Eusebian fifty. [ 13 ] [ 14 ]

    According to Victor Gardthausen Sinaiticus is younger than Vaticanus by at least 50 years. [ 15 ]

    Kirsopp Lake states "copies of three and four columns" is grammatically sound, but there appears not to be good evidence for this technical use of the words. "Sending them by threes of fours" is the most attractive, but there is no evidence that τρισσα can denote "three at a time". Regarding "in three or four columns per page," there is only one known manuscript written in that way – Sinaiticus. Sinaiticus has a curious spelling of the word κραβαττος as κραβακτος; Sinaiticus spells Ισραηλειτης as Ισδραηλειτης, Vaticanus as Ιστραηλειτης; these forms have been regarded as Latin, and they can find in papyri from Egypt. There is no other known Greek district in which these forms were used. The argument for a Caesarean origin of these two manuscripts is much weaker than Egyptian. [ 16 ]

    According to Heinrich Schumacher, Eusebius instead prepared fifty lectionaries, not Bibles. [ 17 ]

    Skeat believed that Vaticanus was rejected by the emperor, for it is deficient in the Eusebia canon tables, contains many corrections (made in scriptorium), and lacks the books of Maccabees. [ 18 ]

    Kurt Aland, Bruce M. Metzger, Bart D. Ehrman doubt that Sinaiticus and Vaticanus were copied by Eusebius on the Constantine order. [ 19 ]

  • mP
    mP

    Eusebius is a known liar, if he couldnt refute those he was addressing with facts he just made them up. He cannot be trusted, and he himself acknowledged that lying for the church was fine.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eusebius_of_Caesarea

    In the 5th century, the Christian historian Socrates Scholasticus described Eusebius as writing for “rhetorical finish” and for the “praises of the Emperor” rather than the “accurate statement of facts.” [43] The methods of Eusebius were criticised by Edward Gibbon in the 18th century. [44] In the 19th century Jacob Burckhardt viewed Eusebius as 'a liar', the “first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity.” [44] Ramsay MacMullen in the 20th century regarded Eusebius's work as representative of early Christian historical accounts in which “Hostile writings and discarded views were not recopied or passed on, or they were actively suppressed..., matters discreditable to the faith were to be consigned to silence.” [45] As a consequence this kind of methodology in MacMullens view has distorted modern attempts, (e.g. Harnack, Nock, and Brady), to describe how the Church grew in the early centuries. [46] Arnaldo Momigliano wrote that in Eusebius's mind "chronology was something between an exact science and an instrument of propaganda " [47] Drake in the 21st century treats Eusebius as working within the framework of a "totalizing discourse" that viewed the world from a single point of view that excluded anything he thought inappropriate. [48]

    MP

    Bolds are my highlights

    If you believe the GB and FDS existed since the times of the Apostles, then Eusebius was defeinitely a worthy GB member.

  • mP
    mP

    @mindBlown

    You can read the actual sinaiticus scrolls online in numerous languages. Makes for an interesting read as compared to the NWT.

    http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    Really, it's a modern day myth Constantine expunged certain books of the bible? Maybe I read many books were left out due to a money issues for the commision of putting the canon together? Is that a myth too? I'll have to do more research....

    Yes. The agenda of the Council of Nicea was not to decide what books to include in the Bible, or to decide on what deity to worship (as Tony Bushby would have it). It was primarily convened to achieve ecclesiastical unity on the Arian question (concerning the nature of Christ and his relationship with God), as well as address other ecumenical concerns. I think the myth (popularized especially by Dan Brown) was inspired by three separate things that occurred after the Council: Constantine ordered the books written by Arius to be destroyed in AD 325, he ordered 50 copies of the Bible to be written in AD 331, and Bishop Athanasius in AD 367 (a generation later after the death of Constantine) declared heretical books forbidden, which led to the destruction of gnostic books and the burying of the Nag Hammadi library. Somehow this got garbled into a story about how Constantine expunged books from the NT (usually claimed to be gnostic gospels) and ordered them destroyed.

    Prior to the Nicene Council there was general agreement among orthodox churches on most of the contents of the NT, gradually developed into a broad consensus (the homologoumena) by the fourth century AD. The NT wasn't first "collated" or invented then. Disagreement at that time largely concerned disputed books (antilegomena) such as the General Epistles (James, Jude, 2 Peter, etc.), Revelation, and the Apostolic Fathers (e.g. Shepherd of Hermas, 1 Clement, Barnabas, etc.). These are the books variably attested in the early NT codices and canon lists (and to this day the disputed General Epistles and Revelation are absent in the Nestorian canon); this is somewhat akin to variability in inclusion in the open-ended Writings in the OT canon (sometimes including the Apocrypha, sometimes not) as opposed to the closed nature of the Torah and the Prophets. The antilegomena however did not include writings viewed as spurious (notha), which would have included all the "gnostic" gospels and other tractates found at Nag Hammadi. These books belonged to gnostic/non-orthodox communities that followed different religious traditions (such as Sethianism) than found in the orthodox churches that were in conflict with them. Similarly, the Sethian gnostics likely did not recognize many or most of the books that the orthodox churches regarded as canonical. Finally, the myth that the Nicene council decided the Bible canon is belied by the fact that that canon lists continued to vary in terms of disputed books for years afterward; the tendency to count Revelation among the antilegomena in fact was common even after Athanasius promulgated his canon list (there is even a chapter discussing this in Elaine Pagels' new book Revelations). And there wasn't one Bible canon but multiple canons in different communities (such as the different canons of the Nestorian Church and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church).

    This is simply not true. There are at least 50 other gospels that the bishops commissioned by Constantine left out.

    Umm, what? Constantine did not commission bishops to decide what books to include in the Bible. Nor were there that many other gospels in all. And as I said above, different communities used different gospels. The Sethian gospels were heavily steeped in Platonic jargon and sectarian concepts; it is no more surprising than asking why the New World Translation doesn't include 2 Nephi or Ether from the Book of Mormon. The orthodox bishops did not include Sethian books in their canon because they were not Sethian gnostics.

    We have cases in the NT where James and possibly Jesus quote the book of Enoch.

    Yeah, but what does that have to do with what I said about the myth about Constantine deciding the canon? It doesn't. 1 Enoch was regarded part of the scriptures by early Christians, but that is not representive of the later situation. To this day, it is still a part of the OT canon in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, but that was probably in part due to the greater isolation of Ethiopia outside the Roman Empire.

    It wasn't that 1 Enoch was suddenly excluded from the Bible in the fourth century AD; it was well on its way out before then. One can compare its enthusiastic use by Tertullian at the start of the third century AD and its disputation by Origen a generation later. By the fourth century AD, Christians began to favor the rabbinical Hebrew canon and text (so the LXX shows increasing accommodations to the proto-MT), as Jerome famously advocated. 1 Enoch was not part of the rabbinical canon because it was an Essene book and the Pharisees did not recognize Essene books. Early Christianity drew strongly on Essenism, so there was an early wide acceptance of books later rejected by the churches. It was the rise of normative rabbinical Judaism that had an influence on Christian concepts of what the OT canon should include.

    The book of Enoch was omitted because it has some really weird things like the watchers (or angels) having sex with birds etc. It also says the nephalim were a mile high and other rediculous nonsense.

    The weird stuff about the Watchers or what not is not any weirder than a lot of the stuff in the OT (talking snakes and what not). And the height of the Nephilim as 300 or 3000 cubits tall in 1 Enoch 7:2 is probably a secondary gloss found only in the Akhmim version and the later Ethiopic; it is not extant in the original Aramaic and it is not found in the Greek version of Syncellus (as well as the allusion to the passage in Jubilees). Thus the recent translation by Nickelsburg renders the passage as "And they were growing in accordance with their greatness".

  • yadda yadda 2
    yadda yadda 2

    I'm not aware of a single reputable historian or new testament scholar that doubts Jesus was a real man who existed. But of course hardly any of them believe that he performed miracles, was literally resurrected, etc, either.

  • mP
    mP
    MP: We have cases in the NT where James and possibly Jesus quote the book of Enoch.

    @leolaia

    Yeah, but what does that have to do with what I said about the myth about Constantine deciding the canon? It doesn't. 1 Enoch was regarded part of the scriptures by early Christians, but that is not representive of the later situation. To this day, it is still a part of the OT canon in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, but that was probably in part due to the greater isolation of Ethiopia outside the Roman Empire.

    MP

    The purpose of Constantines mission was to set a definitive canon. He was the emperor of Rome, money was not an issue, a few more/less pages was not a deciding factor. The problem was some books such as Enoch were obviously absurd and conflicted with other thoughts that the church wished to define as its teaching.

    There was no need to include Enoch because it didnt add any value to the message the church wished to declare.

    In very brief the agenda of christianity is/was:

    - the gospels establishes a peaceful messiah hoping to convince the jews to give up on false rebellous messiahs of judea

    - jesus everyone should love everyone, slaves always obey masters, always pay taxes

    - jesus did not eliminate mosaic law, paul did this.

    - paul establishes some church governance

    - paul eliminates the mosaic law

    - paul visits many key cities of worship for various popular gods and shows them to accept his teaching. check wiki for info on each city. this was the start of the catholic(universal) church. paul didnt care about theology, he adopted ALL.

    - acts shows unity of paul and the gospels

    - nt is all about control, the church over believers, husband over wife.

    - revelation almost didnt make it, its just nonsense but became useful when the church thought up the concept of payments for sin.

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    @mP

    Have you heard of the Muratorian Canon? Look up its accepted time of writing and you'll see the beginnings of an orthodox canon well before Constantine.

    All Constantine cared about was to bring back cohesion to the Empire and Arianism was a growing problem. The question of the identity of Jesus was always a lively debate.

    Like Leolaia nicely detailed, there were different communities that accepted and rejected different books because of their own particular beliefs...they weren't going to be dictacted what to accept as authoritative. Later Roman Emperors also still had to deal with Christology on top of the fact that groups like the Visigoths were more Arian. Could their disaffected and non orthodox subjects be more sympathetic to them instead of Rome?

  • mP
    mP

    @Midget-Sasquatch

    Or the Marcion canon the very first canon of xian scripture which only included one gospel and i think several but not all of pauls writings.

  • mind blown
    mind blown

    Thanx for the info Leolala and mP!

    Last year I had seen a documentary on the history channel (Historical Christ) and it did point out there was many others who claimed to be Christ too, but the Historical Chirst was the only one who actually fulfilled prophecy to the full. Really great documentary, but I don't know how accurate it is. I think it's something I'd like to watch again, it's on Youtube.

    And yes, it had also mentioned that there was various sects with their own interpetions while he was alive, as well as after his death.

    I will do more research on Constantine. Many sites I checked said he only had what was interepated to fullfill his own agenda.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia
    The purpose of Constantines mission was to set a definitive canon. He was the emperor of Rome, money was not an issue, a few more/less pages was not a deciding factor. The problem was some books such as Enoch were obviously absurd and conflicted with other thoughts that the church wished to define as its teaching.

    You need to read a book about Constantine. Preferrably not one written by Dan Brown. Constantine could have cared less....what he did want was to get these squabbling bishops to stop bickering about Arius and compromise for the sake of unity.

    This thing about Constantine being so perturbed about 1 Enoch that he wanted to ban it is pure invention on your part. And there are plenty of other absurd things in the Bible too. There are talking snakes FFS.

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