Beliefs Tied to Geography

by OnTheWayOut 87 Replies latest jw friends

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  FlyingHighNow

  From what I've observed of the atheist community, atheists can - and do - come from every religion on the face of the planet...

  This is a given. I think you misread or misunderstood what I was saying.

  This comment is frequently made on this board, but again it shows the unfamiliarity with religion in general that exists among many ex-Jehovah's Witnesses....

  How so? If you look at the ex witness boards, you will find many raised in ex jw atheists. More so than you find Christians, Muslims, Jews, etc who were raised in the jw's and left. I am talking specifically about raised ins.

  When people were raised in other faiths, when they leave a church, they generally just change faiths or embrace eastern religions and philosophies. You don't find high percentages who drop God completely. Some do become agnostic. Which is normal for anyone of faith at different times of life. Some who leave churches become atheists. And it probably is more true of any cultish church or one that passionately teaches hell and damnation. I can't say because I don't read their ex message boards.

  If you look at my topics started, I did a poll on this subject. It's not an insult to exjw raised ins. It's something a lot of us have realized as we've posted over the years. In my eyes, I am thinking it's a natural reaction for some people to find no god to fill in the space Jehovah once occupied. If you were raised in, you had it brutally hammered into your psyche that no other gods are real except Jehovah.
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  NeonMadman

  Unless critical thinking is first and foremost, Unless a "belief system" has built-in corrective measures as far as testing its own truthfulness, then is would be correct to assume it is wrong.

  edit: of course these corrective measures would be biase to support the "belief system's" viewpoint.

  I'm not sure how that relates to the discussion at hand, that of beliefs being determined by geography. My point was that this sort of argument (that of beliefs being determined by geography, as advanced in the graphic in the original post in this thread) is often raised against theists, but it really proves nothing. How we acquired a belief in no way relates to whether the belief is true or not. The same could be said of atheists and agnostics in this regard as of theists.

  One might also wonder what "corrective measures" are in place to test the presupposition of materialistic naturalism that forms the basis of the atheist's belief, and whether such corrective measures (if they exist) might be biased in favor of that belief system's viewpoint. Ultimately, all belief systems - including atheism - are based on presuppositions that cannot be absolutely proven.
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  leavingwt

  "How we acquired a belief in no way relates to whether the belief is true or not."

  No, it doesn't. However, unless all religions are correct, many people are born into religions that are not 'correct'. If your personal belief is that your religion is correct and others are wrong, then geography presents a problem. Why? If 90% of the population did not choose their relgion, but were simply born into it. The odds of being born into the wrong religion are very good. So, how would one determine if the faith of his fathers is correct?

  If your theology allows people of all religions to be 'correct', then it's not an issue.

  John W. Loftus:

  " The presumption of The Outsider Test would be that since there are so very many religions, and with so many people believing in a particular religion because of “when and where they were born,” that when examining any religious belief, skepticism would be warranted, since the odds are good that the one you are investigating is wrong."
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  NeonMadman

  It sounds as if you are saying that, because there are many wrong religions, it is not possible that any of them are true. Otherwise, what is the significance of the fact that most people are born into religions that are not true? I would agree that the matter of which religion is correct deserves serious investigation. Those who investigate seriously should be able to determine what is true and what is not (though I acknowledge that the issue is a complex one). But the argument presented in this thread, that of geography determining religious belief, and that fact somehow contra-indicating the truth of all religions, seems to be along the lines of the well-known "one less god" argument. The fact that many beliefs are false does not mean that one belief is not true. Atheists happen to believe that atheism, among all the belief systems of the world, is the correct one. Theists would disagree. But the fact that atheism (or, by extension, any form of theism) is one belief system among many certainly cannot be used to argue that it is therefore necessarily false. If there is one God, then the fact that many people believe in gods that do not exist is hardly an argument against the existence of the one who does, any more than the infinite number of potential wrong answers to the question of what 2+2 equals means that there is no correct answer. The geography argument simply presents a logical fallacy, as does the "one less god" argument. Neither speaks to the actual question of the existence of a true God.
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  OnTheWayOut

  Neon Madman, a person born into an atheist society or just to atheist parents needs to examine religion and beliefs and science for himself just as much as someone born into Catholicism or Bhuddism. This thread is just a bit of philosophy and each person can get out of it what they may. But I get out of it that people born in Mexico are way more likely to decide that Catholicism is "the way" on their personal spiritual journey than people born in Iraq.

  I have met Jews who have no idea why they don't eat pork- "...it's a tradition my family taught me." I meet Catholics that haven't the slightest clue why they give up meat on Fridays (now only during Lent).

  There are so many religions that must be wrong, and that indicates that the religion of one's birth is "probably" wrong because of the overwhelming odds, so each person needs to look into the matter for themself.
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  SweetBabyCheezits

  Neon, would you agree that as a matter of logic all religions cannot possibly be right, due to conflicting doctrine? Take the two leading faiths: Christianity and Islam. They've got a pretty big chunk of the religion market right now, with around 2 billion and 1.5 billion adherents respectively.

  Logically, they can't both be right because they are in clear conflict. But they could both be wrong (again, just as a matter of logic). No, that alone doesn't mean that they're both wrong but it's clear, using only the top two religions, a massive chunk of the human race is clutching false beliefs and should NOT allow chance (geography) to set their perspective. And I think the same should be said of ALL world views, even for those raised in atheistic homes/cultures. Who says atheists shouldn't apply critical thinking to their own views?

  The geography argument makes that point well: the method we use to assess our beliefs and suppress bias is absolutely critical if we're really trying to cut throught the mountains of bullshit.

  It's also why I always say "happy" or "lucky" to be Canadian, instead of "proud". It is only an accident of birth that I am here. (ie, I don't get patriotism.)

  I couldn't agree more, Talesin. I'm not proud to be American anymore than I'm proud to be white or proud to have a massive... nose. It is by no hard work on my part that I happen to be/have any of those things, nor do I feel those things make a person superior to the next.

  Like I've heard others say, I'm a citizen of this planet, first and foremost.
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  leavingwt

  NeonMadman: You may enjoy this article by Dr. Plantinga.

  http://www.carnivalsage.com/articles/plantinga-alvin-pluralism-defense-of-religious-exclusivism.html
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  NeonMadman

  Well, if the whole point is that everyone needs to apply critical thinking to his or her beliefs, I would agree with that. But usually, the argument in the graphic is thrown at Christians to imply that, because their beliefs may have been geographically derived, therefore they are almost certainly wrong. It proves no such thing, and there is no relationship between geography and truth claims; that was really my only point in commenting here. So yes, SweetBaby, I would agree with what you say, for the most part. Intellectual vigilance is necessary in maintaining (and, if necessary, modifying) any belief structure.

  Leaving, thanks for the Plantinga link, I've saved it for near future reading.
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  ziddina

  "When people were raised in other faiths, when they leave a church, they generally just change faiths or embrace eastern religions and philosophies. You don't find high percentages who drop God completely...." Flying High Now

  Ahhh.... How many atheist websites have you visited?? How many atheist YouTube channels are you subscribed to? How much contact do you have with the various atheist communities online?

  I have over 20 YouTube subscriptions to atheist channels. One thing I've noticed about them, is how many of them appear to have originated in fundamentalist Christian sects or religions - or openly declare themselves to have originated in such environments.

  I also have 23 atheist blogs/websites in my "favorites" section. I've found similar characteristics among those - nearly all have come from Christian religions and sects, while VERY few have come from the "Jehovah's Witnesses"...

  Here's a survey done on a rationalist's website...

  http://forums.randi.org/archive/index.php/t-177637.html

  Out of 36 respondents, ONLY ONE was a Jehovah's Witness...

  Naturally, you're going to get a SKEWED result, if you ask such a question on a board for FORMER JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES....

  Zid
• 

  FlyingHighNow

  Out of 36 respondents, ONLY ONE was a Jehovah's Witness...

  Zid, there aren't many Jehovah's Witnesses period. The ones they count that go to the hall, not a big number compared to other faiths worldwide. ExJW's then really aren't a very big percentage at all compared to the world population who are members of organized religions. Your quote here reflects that. It isn't an insult to former jw raised ins to say that atheism seems to be a big reaction amongst them. It makes a lot of sense really. From the time raised ins were infants or young children, they've been told that there is only one true God, Jehovah. They are battered constantly with how false and evil all other gods and religions are. Not all raised ins leave and become atheists, but if you ask atheists on this board and other exjw boards if they were born or raised in, most of them were. It's not a testament to the correctness or incorrectness of atheism, its just an observation about the after effects of the WT religion on people who didn't know anything else from infancy or early childhood.