Does the necktie have a pagan origin?

by Cirkeline 15 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Cirkeline

    I wonder if some of you know the origin of the necktie? I have sometimes heard people saying it's a fallos-symbol, but is there a valid background for this?

  • TD

    The origin of the nectie is military, (The abbreviated cravat worn by soldiers in the thirty years war) just like the dress jacket. --Don't know if that makes it pagan or not.

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    It does have an origin in military organizations (I think France). It was in one of the Awake!'s (not kidding).

  • poopsiecakes

    My ancestors brought it to France

    A cravat, symbol of culture and elegance, is associated with Croats. They have not actually patented it, but they spread it as an accesorry across Europe in the 17th century. Then it became and, to this day, remained a necessary article of clothing under the name of Croatia.

    What is the histoy of the cravat? After Turkish attacks, the Croatian Military Boreder was formed and its soldiers were an inexhaustible source for other European battlefields. They participated in the German Thirty Years War (1618-1648) and they were easily recognized because of the scarves around their necks, a predecessor of the cravat. From 1635 Croatian soldiers also served in France and in 1667 a special regiment named Royal Cravates was formed. Common soldiers wore scarves made of coarse materials and officers wore scarves made of fine cotton or silk.

    These neck scarves were a part of Croatian battle dress and a kind of identification because uniforms did not exist at the time. It is known that the French king Louis XIV was involved in secret negotiations with counts Zrinski and Frankopan in order to get Croatia under French patronage. That failed, but the Sun King started to wear a cravat because it was more practical and more beautiful than the starched high-lace collar the French used to wear. When the most powerful European king put on the cravat, a new fashion style became popular. The court even employed a cravat-maker (cravatier) who delivered a few cravats to the king on a daily basis so he could choose the one that suited him most.

  • Quarterback

    It was the dam french that introduced this evil thing into our lives. That along with high cholesterol.

  • Atlantis
  • Poztate

    I posted this tongue in cheek comment about neckties 6years ago... Still good for a chuckle.

    For over two thousand years - since at least the Quin dynasty - the necktie (or cravat) has been the most widely used, and the most multicultural of all phallic symbols . Worn by the personal guard of Shih Huang Ti's terracotta army, by the orators of ancient Rome, and by a succession of dandies, fops, and power dressers throughout history, "the clothe prick" (As Lord Byron was said to have termed it) appears to be nearing the end of its unprecedented accessorial reign. The president of IBM, in a recent e-mail, announced that the cravat was no longer de rigueur for the once impeccably-tied "wing-tip warriors" of the giant multinational. Gianni Versace's latest book Men Without Ties is a runaway success. And now, at the most progressive corporations of New York, Paris, and London, it is quite permissible for men to appear dressed for business with no trace of silk, rayon, or polyester about their necks. What has come undone? Why, after an unprecedented two-thousand year reign, has the most useless, and yet the most fussed over, element of male attire gradually begun to whither in importance?

    In 1900, in The Interpretation of Dreams, Sigmund Freud felt the urge to elucidate another aspect of the necktie's symbology. He wrote: "In men's dreams a necktie often appears as a symbol for the penis. No doubt this because neckties are long, dependent objects and peculiar to men. Men who make use of this symbol in dreams are often very extravagant in ties in real life and own whole collections of them." No doubt Freud was only making explicit what had been at the back of everybody's mind for quite some time, and yet his overt analysis did nothing to check the necktie's popularity. In fact, perhaps envious of such a ubiquitous form of menswear, sporting women began to wear the hanging thing. It was reasoned that a staid and well-tied male fashion accessory around the neck would counterbalance the evident feminine provocativeness of knickerbocker suits, Norfolk bodices and culotte skirts which women were beginning to wear in order to indulge in sports such as horseback riding, skating, sailing, and playing tennis.

    The generation that began experimenting with neckwear in the 'fifties continued to develop their tastes in the sixties, with the Beats, the Mods, and the Regency Revivalists all taking up fantastically different and varied neckwear styles. Lord Lichfield, the dandy Royal photographer, even went to the extreme of reviving the Incroyable cravat with a huge bow. Said Lichfield: "A man doesn't dress for himself. He dresses to attract the girls.... I have an idea all men dress to be sexy like cock pheasants in the mating season."

    French/American linguist and semiotician Dr Christine Nivet is more concerned about the changing phallic role of ties: "Anglophone culture is sexually very repressive, so it is not all that surprising that it spawned such a regimented symbol for virility. As Anglophone women are moving away from neo-puritan feminist ideologies, and the Anglophone men are becoming much less control-oriented, the necktie is undergoing a kind of parallel crisis. We see that the men of Versace's Men Without Ties have an ambiguous sexuality, while at the same time being quite confident. Now, in America, one can sell a perfume for men. This could not be done five years ago, just as businessman could not appear efficacious without a great big dangling tie. Anglophone men are becoming more sure, and less in need of a big display of themselves. For their part, Anglophone women are becoming more seductive, so men do not feel that they have to project their maleness all the time."

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
  • Nebeska Nada
    Nebeska Nada

    The necktie's origin is my country.

    I doubt that my country has some pagan origins.

    Poopsiecakes, where are you from?

  • Azazel

    well done poopsiecakes exactly correct.


  • Phizzy

    I hate the bloody things, I only wear one where the occasion really really demands it, I hated wearing one to the K.H.

    They are becoming much less used in the U.K now, business people will often not wear one, politicians are seen without one frequently, and on the T.V they are used less often, the guy in charge of a news programme may wear on, but often the reporters do not.

    I will not be sorry to see it disappear entirely, but I do think we need a smart alternative, the open neck shirt look is too informal sometimes, perhaps us chaps should champion the use of the roll neck sweater sort of garment ?

    If worn with good quality jacket and trousers (pants fer da yanks) they can still look smart, but not as prattish as a tie.

  • caliber

    another thought about the necktie which some might agree with..

    "Neckties are viewed by various sub- and counter-culture movements as being a symbol of submission and slavery (i.e. having a symbolic chain around one's neck) to the corrupt elite of society, as a 'wage slave'.(sorry lost my quote source)

    also this ..

    Military scarves, like the ones commonly worn by Roman legionaries or Han Chinese soldiers were NO ties, but, surprise, scarves. Their function was to prevented the armour rubbing at the neck, and not meant for personal adornment

  • ProdigalSon

    Christianity and Judaism are pagan in origin, so to find something that isn't you'll have to start looking into other planets.

  • nancy drew
    nancy drew

    There should be a book "stalking the wild pagan origin"

    OH NO life has a pagan origin

  • iamwhoiam

    Hmm...I've heard of the Columbian Neck Tie..wouldn't want one though. :)

  • Cirkeline

    Thank you for all your comments. Very educational.

    Yes, Prodigalson; I agree, everything has a pagan origin, but obvious all the JW-men wearing this military, phallic symbolistic peace of cloth will not agree.

    Therefor, I really hope to confront some of them with this. Especially if some of them ever will dare to comment my or any other womans dress-length or clevage. Would loooove to!

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