@metatron:
djeggnog, your lengthy post appears full of confused , rambling thought.
Ok.
First, I see no evidence that Pat Buchanan sees Witnesses as a mainstream group since he seems to mention the organization as a more extreme example, along with Mormons and their higher admitted acceptance. It would be good if you read the book.
Let me quote here what you said in your first paragraph on page 1, and then tell what it was that prompted me to post a response, ok?
(@metatron:)
I was reading Pat Buchanan's book, "Suicide of a Superpower". On page 71, he speaks about the growing acceptance of homosexuality amidst religions. He claims that 12% of JW's think gay behavior is OK.
I have no way of knowing if this figure of 12% was an accurate one, but I thought it suspect, and, if true, it could only have been based on a poll taken by folks identifying themselves as Jehovah's Witnesses when Jehovah's Witnesses do not participate in such polls. This figure could mean that out of 1,000 people polled, 120 of those people -- or 12% -- told the pollster that they as Jehovah's Witnesses thought homosexuality -- "gay behavior" -- to be ok with them. This poll may have been based on a smaller sampling, where 12 out of 100 people polled indicated how they thought "gay behavior" to be ok. It could also be that as few as 49 people were polled, and 6 out of 49 -- 12% -- indicated to the pollster that they, as Jehovah's Witnesses, considered gay behavior to be acceptable to them.
Now statistics are interesting creatures, since one could extrapolate using such a number that out of 7.3 million Witnesses in the world, 876,000 of them didn't agree with the Bible's view on fornication, that is to say, homosexuality, for what the Bible specifically condemns is fornication. Even if it were true that 6 people out of 49, 12 people out of 100, or 120 people out of 1,000, were to have provided such an opinion, I cannot imagine some 876,000 people out of 7.3 million being of such an opinion as to the Bible's position on fornication.
Second, "He" didn't conduct a poll. He was quoting someone else who conducted the poll - whose answers evidently contradict the Watchtower's command not to cooperate with surveys, as contained in a BOE letter and KM instruction.
Why would it matter if the poll was conducted by Pat Buchanan or by his baby brother? What I understood from your post was that on page 71 of Buchanan's book, "Suicide of a Superpower," he claimed -- and I'm quoting you here -- "that 12% of JW's think gay behavior if OK."
I don't know anything at all about who conducted the poll from which this 12% figure came, or on what this 12% figure is based, but based on what you wrote in your message, I decided to post a comment challenging the veracity of the statement you indicated was made in Buchanan's book.
You have no proof of any assertion that Witnesses would or would not answer such a survey, especially given that large numbers of Witnesses ignore MANY commands from the GB currently ( such as 'Please contribute' or 'Don't save seats' or 'Stay off Facebook' or 'Attend Meetings')
I feel as if I am speaking to a child here -- I hope I'm not! -- and I don't care if you feel insulted by my having just said this to you, but the fact that you posted a message to challenge my "assertion" that Witnesses would not answer such a survey is quite telling. The only thing I challenged was the 12% figure that you wrote in your message was given in Buchanan's book. Jehovah God didn't make human beings either animals or robots that we should be trained to respond obediently to every command we are given. No, but man was made in God's image and likeness, made with the ability to think, to reason, to decide whether we are going to do something or not to do that something, since we were all made with something called "free will."
Do you really consider it to be a sin to save seats when you are told by someone not to do so? Do you really consider it to be a sin to visit a web site like JWN, where both active and inactive Witnesses -- some of them apostates and some of them "conscious" and in fade, some of them alone or confused or angry with an elder or with the way in which the representative body of elders handled an issue, some of them angry because an elder told them that they would be there for them to handle a matter related to the use of blood following an accident and because the elder was a no-show, they now fear God's retribution because the doctors "forced" a blood transfusion on their child, and some other angry that the representative body of elders took sides against them when investigating a matter, and some of them who have never been Witnesses at all, but who may have studied the Bible with one of them -- also visit quite frequently?
If you don't want to do what the elders might ask you to do, if you don't wish to follow the guidelines provided in our literature with respect to social networking sites like this one or Facebook, if you would rather save seats for your family when you are attending a convention or other large gathering, whatever the reason, in Christ you are free to do whatever it is you decide to do. You may not be an elder or you may never be an elder, but in Christ you are just as free to make your own choices as any elder, who are provided as gifts to provide spiritual help to those in the flock that need or request their help, and are just as equal to you and to those in the congregation that may have only just gotten baptized.
Now let me quote here what you said in your second paragraph on page 1, and then tell what it was that prompted me to post a response, ok?
(@metatron:)
Really? And where are these self identified Jehovah's Witnesses who think that gay is OK? Is the Governing Body worried about this ? California congregations, I'll bet.
I wanted to disabuse you of the notion that this 12% of the "self identified Jehovah's Witnesses" you mentioned that thought fornication ("gay behavior") to be ok were "California congregations," since I'm in California and I think this number to be bogus, inaccurate, perhaps spun by Buchanan to meet his agenda. You said you thought I was "confused, rambling" in what I wrote, and you are entitled to think what you like, but hopefully you'll realize at some point that I wasn't just speaking to you, @metatron, but what I posted was for the reading consumption of everyone that should come upon and read your thread on JWN, including the lurkers, and not those that should read this thread today, but those who should read this thread months or years from now. In closing, I'm going to wax something here in the next four (4) paragraphs:
Let's just say that I've grown accustomed to speaking to large groups of people on the 'net, and unlike you and many others here on JWN, I don't view admonitions or even the suggestions that someone might give me as commands that would constitute sins were I to decide to ignore one or more of them as you seem to view all such. If you prefer to argue with me, that's fine, but I'm smarter than that and I won't do it. I may have had one or two vigorous debates on JWN, but I believe everyone on JWN deserves respect even if we should disagree and I give it to everyone. But read what things I've written and you'll see I'm firm; I will never "sugarcoat" that which does not merit such.
Many of the folks here have been benched or are voluntarily sitting on the bench, but you have a "leg-up" on everyone else in the world in having heard the truth, so you're in the game. We're teammates really, but some of you have sustained an injury, so you are not able to play at present. Some of you were fleshly Christians when you were "in" and many of you continue to be "fleshly" in your viewpoints, but maybe you know that it is not possible to reinstate someone that wasn't in the game. Only those that were actually in the game can be removed from the injured list if their injury heals satisfactorily and get off that bench. Note that I don't say, "Don't save seats" or "Stay off Facebook," but what I do say is, "Get Back into the Game."
I don't know what brought you to JWN; maybe you came here to vent about the governing body (who soon will not be there for anyone, just the elders, and maybe only you will be there for you and your family as the great tribulation approaches), maybe you came here hoping to find others that would commiserate with you in some way. I'm here to speak to the many lurkers that read the threads here on JWN, who may be on the proverbial fence and having doubts about their faith. Ask around: I don't have a secret agenda, and I speak to you now as an adult, and not as a child:
You see, as a mature adult, I have learned not only how to make decisions, but, as a mature adult in Christ, I have learned a long time ago that I have the freedom to do all things despite what things someone else's conscience won't permit them to do. Some elders can be bullies at times, but you give to them the power to impose their own will on you, since you have a Bible the same as they, don't you? and if you've both read and studied the Bible, you know that these were not placed in any of the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses to bully anyone, do you not?
@EmptyInside:
When I was still an active [Witness, I] realized it wasn't a choice. I used to cringe when other Witnesses made derogatory remarks.
But if you're gay, why did you cringe? I don't think being gay to have involved a choice on your part to be such; I don't think being a alcoholic involved a choice made by someone to be such either. But everyone that comes to Christ must choose to put away those things that he does not accept, and if you're not ready to do this, you cannot be compelled by someone else to come to Christ, but you must come to him voluntarily, willingly.
I guess my liberal views finally opened my eyes about the religion.
Now Witnesses are human beings though, and just like there are some things that people do that might make you cringe -- maybe you observe someone using one of the tables across from where you are sitting at McDonald's as they change a baby's diaper and the sight of this causes you to cringe when you are trying to eat -- some Witnesses have biases that have made them bigots when it comes to homosexuality, and you will just have to accept that we all have things on which we need to work. Those derogatory remarks come from bigotry and they indicate a lack of 'neighbor love' on the part of those making them. But you know what?
There are those who are gay that attend many of the meetings at our Kingdom Halls and even the bigoted wonders we have in our midst have learned how to greet by name these gay men and lesbians. I don't what your "liberal views" have to do with Christianity, but I do know that it's hard enough trying to change our own behavior, so why concern yourself with trying to change the behavior of other people. Being gay may not be a choice, but deciding that you will have sexual relations with someone to whom you're not married is a choice. I would like to 'open your eyes' as to this, @EmptyInside: You can attend our meetings and you don't have to offer up an explanation as to any of the things you might do in your personal life to anyone; let those Witnesses sneer, but it's up to you to keep growing in knowledge of God and Christ as you work out your own salvation.
@djeggnog
