Judge rules child can attend kingdom hall and church.

by koolaid-man 20 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  yknot

  @ madge

  Actually......jw/nonJW relationships can work out.....

  I am married to a worldy (going on 17 yrs now) and very few of our issues have been directly related to me being a JW. No Elder has ever advised me to leave on the basis of spiritual issues........ (though one Elder did say I should hold hubby as accountable as I do other men...)

  Most JWs aren't as loyal as they profess publically anyway ....... and in her case she was (a) sleeping around with a worldly guy (b) sleeping around with a worldly guy and did I mention (c) sleeping around with worldly guy...... so she clearly lacks Org loyalty on deeper levels. Go to most halls these days and you will find one or more of these Sisters

  Regardless of what he is 'told'..... if he was putting himself out there in a sexual relationship, he is accountable for himself as a man. I think he is doing the right thing by asserting his rights as a parent after the fact but the whole excuse of "I didn't know until 6 mo after and she attends regularly" is tired and lame. The only way he didn't know is if he didn't care enough to want to know more about this girl before getting into her pants, an all to common case of the south-head thinking instead of the northern one.

  I just don't think this is a huge deal, it happens all the time. If anyone is to 'blame' its all those men who do convert for a Sister which in turn romanticizes the possibility. When I started dating my husband I asserted our WT Conductor's situation as reason for allowance and hope......their courtship was 'epic' including a disfellowshipping and him riding into a study/conversion and saving her reputation via marriage and full ministry activity and becoming a MS/Elder ......epic, if they ever broke up I would be heartbroken because it seems like they have 'true love'..... I avoid flipping him because I see how well they get along, their children will leave the faith eventually and that is when their time will come to leave the WTS too.

  As for 'halfies'...... as a mom of two halfies..... share your beliefs, explain why you don't believe as the other parent does and offer a kind, mild and fun alternative that the child can relate too and feel safe amongst. Stay deeply involved, the more a child trust and feels close to you the more reasonableness will prevail and your voice will be the calm during troublesome times. When they are of age a full inheritance of their spiritual heritage is in order if they haven't yet discerned fully the bunkness of the WTS myth.

  @ Entirely Possible

  I think mediation would have been better but if he is willing to take it to court.....it is his right.

  I would fully expect Sister to go all uber under the pressure too, but this too shall pass, the more he pushes the more she will feel forced to remain steadfast.....really, allowing some time and working on interpersonal skills is usually the best route because acting like enemies in a duel doesn't make for a happy co-parenting situation.
• 

  Madge

  Congratulations on making your marriage last!! I find too often the divide placed on the Watchtower and "worldy" relationships creates great strain on a relationship, it is elightening to hear some can overcome that!

  Most JWs arent as loyal as the profess publically, I absolutely agree with you! And, her sleeping with a worldy man is very much proof that the mother in this instance was not as loyal as she publically proclaimed to be. I would like to mention here that I dated a JW man for 3 years, and he did not tell me he was a Witness at all until 6 months into our relationship. Frankly, not being raised in or around the beliefs of the Witnesses, I had no idea what that really meant. To say that the only way he didnt know was because he was trying to get into her pants is ridiculous! Maybe HE ACTUALLY LOVED HER! And, maybe he believed her when she said things like "its not a big deal"which seems to be the chorus line most JW's hum into the unknowing ears for most JW/non-JW relationships. But, IT IS a big deal, and every witness denies it, but knows it! To me, it was nothing more then a belief system. Plain and simple. But, its not just a belief system. It is a control mechanism. I didnt know that then. But HE DID. Just as much as she did. And, I'm sure the father in this instance probaby rationalized with "Well, if it was a big deal, she wouldnt be with me." Naive? Yes. I thought that line a million times myself! I truly wanted to believe him when he said it wasn't!

  It would just seem to me that their is no middle ground with the Watchtower. Its hot or cold. In or out. As a parent you cant have your cake and eat it to and sacrifice the best interest of your child/children to spare the public admittance that you arent actually loyal to the organization. His belief system doesnt teach that the childs mother is going to be annihilated at Armageddon. Hers does. Which one is more damaging to the parent/child relationship? Which belief system operates heavily on guilt and coercion? All these things, damaging to a childs young mind. Scarring really. And, most likely the child wont be a JW when he/she grows up. So why put them through the confusing mess and emotional trauma of it in the first place? I do agree that it was a boneheaded move of him to take it to court provided I believe you are exactly right that she will go all uber back into it from the pressure. I agree with you that it is better to talk about what you believe /dont believe with the children involved, however, the Watchtower is so aggressive in its teachings, that the consequences may scare the children involved to admit any doubt. I do praise him for standing up for being concerned enough about his rights as a father to take it to a courtroom.

  I whole heartedly agree with communication being key. I could see where the father feels threatened, frustrated, and angry, going through all those emotions myself. It will be important that the father never ever bashes her belief system. (I have had to bite my tongue a few times). But, like you said, you must be the calm that they can trust, and I do believe that as well. I did not take my situation into a court room, however, he has agreed to leave it out of her life, and so far, he has. I respect him very much for that. In the future, I hope it doesnt take duking it out in a courtroom. But, I would certainly stand up and fight if ever I needed too.
• 

  Violia

  I find the ruling odd too, a 12 yr old can decide if they will die for this religion but cannot vote, join military or consent to sex ( can't consent to have sex with someone nor can parents sign to allow them to marry someone ).
• 

  diamondiiz

  The only way he didn't know is if he didn't care enough to want to know more about this girl before getting into her pants, an all to common case of the south-head thinking instead of the northern one.

  This is partially true. One thing that many of us think about, while the general public doesn't, is religion. When a non-jw meets a jw who is hiding their beliefs to do their own thing, the non-jw doesn't judge the other on the basis of religion and doesn't even consider a religion to be a problem in today's world - in the western countries. If one meets a mate at a bar (ex.) and they began to date, religion doesn't really come up, since the non-jw partner may do their weekly church ritual, while the jw obviously is hiding their own background due to the fact they're breaking wts' laws in the first place so if this relationship does progress and usually these relationships progress rather quicker than usually because the dub wants a ring on the finger be married to continued with their BS faith. The unsuspecting mate has no clue what s/he is getting themselves into until it's too late.

  When people fall in "love" they think they can overcome practically anything, and delude themselves that the other partner will change some of their personality or that they will work on their faults. We as humans delude ourselves all the time, and when it comes to dating a cult member, it is no different. They seem fun and good people when they're outside of their element but once the marriage is a done deal and the jw or other cult member returns to the herd, the problems start to arise that the other member couldn't foresee due to the complexity of the situation.

  It's true that sometimes jw/non-jw relations work out, and there are many examples but what are the reasons for these? Is it because one partner is willing to put up with the other's crazy ideas more than otherwise? Is it because the cult member is not strictly following the wts' line on dos and don'ts. Was a jw partner a born-in, a convert or could one be an undercover apostate ? Personally I wouldn't advise a non-jw to date a jw but than again we learned this from our own past that in any future relationships we would ask about our prospective mate's religious beliefs before we would go into a serious relationship while the general public doesn't even think about the possibility of dating a cult member.
• 

  Band on the Run

  No onw referred to the wisdom of Solomon in ordering the baby hacked in half to resolve the dispute over which woman was the true woman. Actually, the story makes no sense. How many bioloigcal moms abuse or abandon their babies. This poor child is going to have a ping pong view to life. One week-nice life One week-agony. It is going to be confusing. Still, if it were up to me, I'd rather be exposed to normality and good values half the time rather than no time.

  The Anglican Church and the Witnesses are polar opposites in culture. This little story could make a love story type film about star crossed lovers-Love Story, Romeo and Juliet, countless other films and novels.

  I try to date Anglicans and other mainstream Protestants. Life is so stressful enough without added sparks.
• 

  yknot

  Madge,

  I can understand your POV (well somewhat) but as a born-in I can tell you why he didn't and why she didn't immediately identify themselves as JWs.

  1) They aren't uber strong in the faith (if so they would never date outside)

  2) Fear...... he and she probably spent a good portion of their lives being rejected on the sole basis of being a JW and believe me it hurts deeply even though we all have developed thick skins on the surface.

  3) He and She despite WTS talk are still human....they needed and desired a connection with another human being, evidently such option wasn't possible in the local congregation or circuit.

  4) Theocratic jockeying always comes into play in JW relationships.....very few people really want to be judged on this premise for personal relationships, men and women both crave being liked/loved for who they are not what they can or have achieved.

  5)Not immediately acknowledging can be akin to not admitting a person grew up in an abusive home or with a dysfunctional parent or if a person was sexually molested .....trust has to be established first for vunerability to feel comfortable the WTS is abusive but they don't discern it consciously yet.

  6) He and She both liked yall.......wanted 'love to conquer all'.....

  I am curious why it would matter if he was a JW if you didn't think enough to ask in the beginning yourself. .......also why not end it sooner, why have a child together?

  Not denying the JW aspect can be tricky but acknowledging that some of us are a lil less rigid then the WTS likes to portray. I am not nor ever was a 'blindfaither' rather always understood I had to weigh and discern things (because I remember life before the 1983 'independent thinking article'

  I didn't tell my hubby I was JW right off the bat either.....but I live in a small town, he was bff with my sister's then hubby and well me being a JW is pretty well known, didn't think I had to directly address it in the beginning and assumed he knew (cuz he lived with my Sister/hubby for 2 weeks when he first got back to town)

  If my hubby had bothered to try and get me out in a thoughful manner I am sure I would have resisted some but logic would have prevailed if he used methods often discussed on JWN of using our own publications against us. In the end, m)y JWism wasn't much an issue and he has learned that putting a sheet over the Xmas tree when kids are away keeps me from hyperventilating.
• 

  Madge

  Yknot,

  To be honest, when I found out he was a witness I didnt think it was a big deal. I should have realized it was considering he didnt tell me right away (why hide it if its insignificant?), but at the time, I was already head over heels for him. I saw the side of him that was downtown at the bars having a good time every night. If it was a big deal, that would be on him to know better. They are afterall, HIS rules. How would I know his boundaries if he didnt say them? I went to his house often, I never saw a Watchtower or Awake magazine ANYWHERE. After I found out we kept dating. But, when I found out I was pregnant it all changed. Suddenly he wanted to play by his rules. He disappeared, and then would resurface for a week, lie again and again, still trying to maintain that "it wasnt a big deal" then he would disappear again. Then he told me that our child would be a witness and "there was nothing I could do about it." Then I started researching the beliefs, and thats when I started to fully understand his boundaries. He ended up disfellowshipped racked with guilt and assumed that I should comply with all of the necessary demands. At first I thought we could work it out, but he only wanted things by his rules now to preserve his "good boy" image, and thats just selfish. Just because he didnt play by his own rules didnt mean I had to sacrifice my childs ability to participate in sports or seek a higher education so he can look "good" and please a bunch of men. I was disgusted with the selfishness, and the total narcissism that he and his family and organization displayed. The whole organization lost my respect after I watched the three ring circus of him trying to win their approval back. It was about a joke. They treated him like a child, and he let them. Thats when I knew that I had to protect my daughter at all costs.
• 

  strymeckirules

  (nobody has attacked rick on this thread yet.)

  good job.
• 

  yknot

  Madge,

  So sad.

  The WTS emasculates many men, not all but many.

  Appearances can be everything and often is in many congregations.

  Every JW has that reaction to a baby with a worldly including me ...... it is fear.

  In many ways its not a big deal to be a born/raised JW unless you get 'caught' not acting like a JW. A lot of the times we don't think about the lines and blurr them to keep sane, cognitive dissonance as you probably have read in your research.

  What is 'normal' in our world isn't in yours, most of us hide our JW identities at some point because we want to be normal, to assimilate JW and normal, it is a lie we tell ourselves not meant to hurt yall. The pressure is uber-stupid as you witnessed yourself, I am sure he was given an extra hard time because a baby always becomes 'known' and there has to be a public lesson/disapproval.

  The fact that he has agreed and continues to keep his word about leaving the WTS out is very very very very very telling......

  Gotta strong feeling I could 'wake' him up......

  Really I do appreciate your POV, it is always a learning lesson for me to read from yall's side of the fence (esp since most JWmen don't marry worldly girls----ya ya they have sex with them but a JWman who is single is a rare and valuable commodity and the only way he doesn't have to beat sisters off with a stick is if he slacking big time or isnt' smart enough to move his pub card)..... thank you so much for sharing and helping me to garner a deeper appreciation!

  huggles
• 

  LV101

  yknot -- great to see you here.

  I'm going to PM you to ask you a question.

  LV101