Is it really paradise?

tootired2care

I have been a JW all of my life. After being burned out as an MS and getting tired of waiting for the end to come, and other things, I decided to start the fade process a month ago (want to keep family ties open) and start living my life. I've noted few points gave me serious doubts about my current course. I'm curious what are your thoughts on these?

1. After my many years of service I saw time and time again how family member and friends that really put themselves on the line and needed help and earnestly prayed for it never got the help that they were supposed to get from the holy spirit. It made me conclude that there is a good chance there is no Holy Spirit "magic" that really provides assistance as they would have you believe. So why are we asked to pray for it when it really has no observable effect?

2. I have never liked meetings and service, its always been an akward, uncomfortable and boring (E.G. every year we have to learn why we need to go to all three days of convention-are we little kids!) experience for me. One night I was pondering this and I thought that even if I make it to paradise that implies 1000 years of bible studies and meetings (WT style) followed by another test. Everyone makes paradise sound so wonderful but is it really? Sure the earth will be cleaned up no dying etc. However real freedom will never exist, you'll still have to go to meeting and do bible studies and worship. In other words walking the Godly way is not for those who want to do what they want to do really? I just get really depressed when I think of 1000 years of meetings and bible studies with resurrected.

3. Why did God invent the sword before man ever knew anything of war? Cherubs gaurding eden with "flaming sword", but then we are supposed to shun all war and violence?

Broken Promises

Hello and welcome.

Have you done much research on the JWs on the internet?

tootired2care

Just a little bit why?

tec

Welcome to the forum, tootired.

1. After my many years of service I saw time and time again how family member and friends that really put themselves on the line and needed help and earnestly prayed for it never got the help that they were supposed to get from the holy spirit. It made me conclude that there is a good chance there is no Holy Spirit "magic" that really provides assistance as they would have you believe. So why are we asked to pray for it when it really has no observable effect?

I cannot comment on other people and their prayers, but you asked for thoughts and here are mine: Don't JW's believe that the HS is an impersonal force? How does an impersonal force answer prayers?

2. I have never liked meetings and service, its always been an akward, uncomfortable and boring (E.G. every year we have to learn why we need to go to all three days of convention-are we little kids!) experience for me. One night I was pondering this and I thought that even if I make it to paradise that implies 1000 years of bible studies and meetings (WT style) followed by another test. Everyone makes paradise sound so wonderful but is it really? Sure the earth will be cleaned up no dying etc. However real freedom will never exist, you'll still have to go to meeting and do bible studies and worship. In other words walking the Godly way is not for those who want to do what they want to do really? I just get really depressed when I think of 1000 years of meetings and bible studies with resurrected.

I think you get depressed thinking about that because it is depressing! It is very legalistic and religious. Paradise/the Kingdom of God involves feeling, emotion, love and compassion... the SPIRIT... not book studies and ritual and continued fear that you might not pass a test at the end of the thousand years. That doesn't even make sense. There is NO second death for those who take part in the first resurrection.

3. Why did God invent the sword before man ever knew anything of war? Cherubs gaurding eden with "flaming sword", but then we are supposed to shun all war and violence?

God didn't invent the sword. We did. But the sword (that we already had) can be used as a symbol to represent something, according to what the writer and audience understands. We know that sword does not have to mean steel sword. The sword that comes out of Christ's mouth is symbolic of truth. Not a steel sword slicing through flesh.

Flaming sword is also a symbol.

Peace to you, and again, welcome to the board.

Tammy

NewChapter

Welcome toot. I had to laugh because when I was a true believer, the thought of attending all those meetings forever used to made me cringe. It wasn't something that could be said outloud, and I used to hope that perfection would make me like meetings. As I have said here before, I'm absolutely sure I made the correct choice in leaving. But if by some crazy chance they were right, I'd rather die in armeggedon than go to all those meetings and live with those plastic people forever. Not that I didn't care about many of them, but who were they? They constructed personalities approved of by the WT, and I just don't think I could take the boredom.

Tec, did Adam invent the sword? Cuz I missed that part. God left a flaming sword spinning at the entrance of the Garden of Eden. I was under the impression that Adam and Eve were cast out after one sin---which did not involve a sword. Why is it when humans do it, it's a problem, but when someone points out that god did it, it is excused? Words suddenly change meanings. Sword doesn't actually mean sword anymore. That sword in Jesus' mouth symbolized judgement---death. Exactly what swords have always symbolized. And why would such a violent image have been used if it had a warm and fuzzy meaning? He could have easily carried an olive branch in his mouth, but true to scriptural nature, it was an implement of death.

Toot---those are excellent observations and questions.

NC

Broken Promises

Just a little bit why?

Just asking... and asking questions is what brings most of us here. The JWs cannot answer our questions properly yet they claim to be the only religion used by God... hmmm.

If you have questions, by all means post them up, but if you do a search of the subject using the search feature, you will find many great threads on a whole variety of subjects.

I wish you well on your spiritual journey. It will be a rocky road at times, but a journey that is worth taking every step of the way.

LostGeneration

Hey Tootired,

Welcome to the board. Yours are good questions, just a few of the hundreds that in the end completely destroy JW theology in the end IMHO.

1. I agree. I do think prayer can lead people to follow the course that they are expressing in their prayers. For example, if Joe publisher keeps praying over and over to find part time work and begin pioneering, then he is probably going to be looking actively for a situation that answers his prayer. Of course this works for just about everyone praying to whatever entity. Kind of the "positive thinking" effect. Dawkins has a good chapter in the God Delusion about an actual study done on prayer.

2. Good points all. Of course there really won't be true freedom ever, even after millions of years. Everyone will have to "toe the line" or risk being killed. Free will and paradise earth as portrayed by JWs don't work together.

3. Another good point. I hadn't thought about that one, there are hundreds of things like that in the bible.

tec

Tec, did Adam invent the sword?

The story isn't written in real time. The sword was something that we understand, so it can be used as a symbol for someone who later wrote down that story (inspired, literal, myth or whatever). The story did not come first, and then we got the idea to go out and invent swords.

I always understood the sword from the mouth of Christ to be truth. He speaks Truth, leaving no room for anyone to hide from that truth. Even the old prophetess said to Mary that a sword would pierce her own soul too. She wasn't meaning a literal sword. Nor judgment or death against Mary.

Truth is judgment for some, mind you, because they refuse to see the truth of themselves. They don't want to see it. So if the truth comes to them, it is battling against the lies they tell themselves and others.

And why would such a violent image have been used if it had a warm and fuzzy meaning?

Truth is rarely warm and fuzzy, and espeically not to those who live lies.

Peace,

Tammy

tootired2care

Thanks for comments it's really nice to have a place be able to express myself openly and get unvarnished feedback from free thinkers such as yourselves.

Regarding the sword...

The sword was something that we understand, so it can be used as a symbol for someone who later wrote down that story (inspired, literal, myth or whatever). The story did not come first, and then we got the idea to go out and invent swords.

My understanding though of that part of the Genesis account is that it's a recording of actual events that took place. Not a work of symbolism such as in the book of Revelation. Therefore I would submit that the sword had to be as real as the two cherubs standing next to it; it would not be logical to mix symbolic elements with an accounting of a real event that took place. If this were the case it would call into question the validity of many other historical accounts that the bible chronicles which have proven accurate based on archealogical findings.

transhuman68

Welcome tootired2care. Wikipedia is a good place to research the Bible, and find out what meanings there are in it. Hard to believe: but the truth is out there- a body of knowledge that has gradually built up from decades of research by real Bible scholars.

Is it really paradise?

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