Was the Bible written for two opposite audiences?

by Fernando 23 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Fernando
    Fernando

    It seems the Bible can be interpreted using either a religious or a spiritual framework with opposite results.

    I have been pondering if this was by design, to effect a separation between the sheep (wheat) and weeds (goats).

    Does this mean that the Bible is effectively booby-trapped against spiritually blind (physical, natural, carnal, legalistic, moralistic, ethnocentric and Gnostic) supremacist religionists who would get the wrong end of the stick and show themselves to be children of the "god of religion" and not children of the "god of Abraham"?

    It would seem a religious framework results in blindness and (supremacist) behaviour common to the ruling religious Watchtower hierarchy and clergy. Essentially "Christless Christianity".

    It would seem that a spiritual framework results in the opposite - social justice, open mindedness, liberal and generous orientation, inclusivity . Although far from perfect, persons such as Martin Luther, Mahatma Gandhi, Mother Teresa and Nelson Mandela come to mind.

    Your thoughts and perspective on this will be much appreciated and a big help in my research (Sociology of Spirituality, Sociology of Religion).

  • Knowsnothing
    Knowsnothing

    Fernando, why would God "booby trap" his word if he desires all to "come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

    If the Bible can be "interpreted" many ways, than there is no way to know which one is the truth.

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    "sons" are for nurturing are they not? It has been interpreted as people because of the description "sons". But I think it means "a likeness resembling character"

    So then if so, it means beliefs that are protected (as children as protected).

    Wheat being the true food, weeds being beliefs that cause death.

    I don't really know what it means but I KNOW it doesn't mean people.

    The wheat are not people, the weeds are not people.

    What a bloody mess that would be.

    Oh, I have seen, oh never mind...

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    the Truth, the Life, Was the Bible written for two opposite audiences?

    No, dear Fernando (peace to you!). "The Bible" wasn't "written"; it was compiled and canonized... by men who walk by sight, as opposed to walking by faith... FOR men who walk by sight, rather than by faith. Not by God... or Christ. It is not the word/Word of God. It is merely a compilation of writings ("scripture", which is (1) NOT all of the books, and (2) has been tampered with; hence, "Woe, to you... scribes!")... as well as records, histories, chronologies, and letters... which a couple/few of "councils" of men decided to put together. Some agreed as to what should go in the canon, some didn't but acquiesced. Some agreed as to what the writings, etc., said, some didn't but acquiesced. Some agreed as to what the writings, etc., meant... some didn't but acquiesced.

    Does this mean that the Bible is effectively booby-trapped against spiritually blind

    Booby-trapped? No. That would suggest (1) that the "author" didn't want everyone to "get it", and (2)... which I think you might believe... that God is that "author." Both are erroneous. The spiritually blind don't/can't get what's IN the Bible... because what they are seeking (God, salvation, forgiveness, absolution, resurrection, "heaven", eternal life... answers... TRUTH...) is not IN the Bible. Which is why Christ is recorded (in the Bible) to have said of those who don't get it:

    “Though seeing, they do not see;
    though hearing, they do not hear or understand.

    In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:

    “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
    you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.
    For this people’s heart has become calloused;
    they hardly hear with their ears,
    and they have closed their eyes.
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts
    and turn, and I would heal them.'"

    He said this because they were "searching the scriptures"... rather than going/coming to him, as he said:

    "You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."

    He tried to tell them:

    To you, O people, I call out;
    I raise my voice to all mankind.
    You who are simple, gain prudence;
    you who are foolish, set your hearts on it.
    Listen, for I have trustworthy things to say;
    I open my lips to speak what is right.
    My mouth speaks what is true,
    for my lips detest wickedness.
    All the words of my mouth are just;
    none of them is crooked or perverse.
    To the discerning all of them are right;
    they are upright to those who have found knowledge.
    Choose my instruction instead of silver,
    knowledge rather than choice gold,
    for wisdom is more precious than rubies,
    and nothing you desire can compare."

    and...

    Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.

    and...

    “Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as Scripture has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them.”

    To those who DID go/come to him, however, he said/says:

    “... the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. This is why I speak to them in parables... But blessed are your eyes... because they see... and your ears... because they hear."

    What did such ones eyes see and ears hear? Him. Not Moses, not the Prophets, not the scriptures or the Law; him. And that is what those who hear but never understand and see but never perceive don't get. Those things they are seeking? God... salvation... forgiveness... absolution... resurrection... "heaven"... eternal life... answers... TRUTH... are all summed up and are IN... him. HE is the Way, the Door, the Narrow Gate, the Saviour, the Redeemer, the Spirit, the Knowledge, the Wisdom, the Sanctification, the Life... the TRUTH. If they would only look at HIM... they would find everything they're seeking.

    why would God "booby trap" his word if he desires all to "come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

    The Bible... is not God's word/Word, dear KN (peace to you, as well!). To keep saying that is a GRAVE error. Just as he is the Way, the Door, the Narrow Gate, the Saviour, the Redeemer, the Spirit, the Knowledge, the Wisdom, the Sanctification, the Life... the TRUTH... Christ is also the Word of God. The ONLY Word of God. To keep calling a pile of paper and ink God's Word is... anathema. Really, it is. Those who do so are replacing the Son... and Word... of God... the One who SPEAKS for God... with a compilation of writings that have been mistranslated, mistransliaterated, misinterpreted, misunderstood, misused... and more. He, however, is the TRUTH... and there is NOTHING twisted or crooked from HIM.

    If the Bible can be "interpreted" many ways, than there is no way to know which one is the truth.

    There is no Bible that is the truth. There is no Bible that is perfect and infallible. ALL have been subjected to the "false/lying pen/stylus of the secretaries/scribes." Every one of them. But that is of no concern because, again, the Bible is not the Truth... any more than it is the Word of God. Only Christ is the Truth... and the Word of God.

    Unless and until people see THAT truth... they are blind. Even though they SAY they see. Because the Bible does not open one's eyes. Only Christ can... and does... that. Even the Bible says that... for those who have their faith in that tome:

    "And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets,he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself." Luke 24:27

    "They asked each other, “Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the roadand opened the Scriptures to us?”Luke 24:32

    "He said to them, ' This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.' Thenhe opened their mindsso they could understand the Scriptures." Luke 24:44, 45

    "These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see." Revelation 3:17, 18

    It is for THIS reason that so many remain blind: because they DO NOT LISTEN. Indeed, they do not listen so as to GET the meaning of the admonishment, to:

    KISS... THE SON!

    I hope, though, that you dear ones hear and get the sense of these things. And that you receive, if you wish them, ears to hear... when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:

    "COME! Take 'life's water'... the spirit of God (the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies)... holy spirit... which spirit is poured out from the inmost parts OF that Son and Christ, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah)... FREE!"

    I bid you both peace!

    Servant to the Household of God, Israel... and those who go with... and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • Fernando
    Fernando

    @Knowsnothing, I wonder if one could paraphrase: "God desires all to attain to (or be granted) repentance (awareness of dysfunction) and be granted faith (a wide opening of our spiritual eyes) by inclining our hearts to HIM and his MESSAGE (the full unabridged 'good news about Jesus')"? This would suggest that those who CHOOSE self-righteousness (religion) instead of unmerited and IMPUTED righteousness (the good news of grace and justification) are granted the right and free will to do so. If the Bible is interpreted to us by Holy Spirit it should lead us to Jesus ("the truth"), and away from the confusion of (sectarian) religion.

    @AGuest, thank you for the detailed, well considered and thought provoking reply. "A compilation of writings that have been mistranslated, mistransliterated, misinterpreted, misunderstood, misused... and more". Indeed! Being shocked at the many instances where the Watchtower has done this one can but wonder what the RCC has done before them. Still, I was granted repentance and faith from an honest and relentless pursuit of the full and true "good news ABOUT Jesus" in the NWT and WT CD, of all places! I also learnt that the full and priceless "good news" is revealed (by Holy Spirit) rather than discovered (by man). The Holy Spirit can and often does reveal translation and other errors on the fly to ANY believer (simple Jesus follower). You might enjoy parts of the chapter on the Bible called "Christianity is not a book religion" in http://www.christinyou.net/pdfs/Christiantynotrel.pdf.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    @AGuest, thank you for the detailed, well considered and thought provoking reply.

    You are quite welcome, dear Fernando (again, peace to you!).

    Being shocked at the many instances where the Watchtower has done this one can but wonder what the RCC has done before them.

    Okaaayyy?? As to BOTH - LOLOLOLOL!

    Still, I was granted repentance and faith from an honest and relentless pursuit of the full and true "good news ABOUT Jesus" in the NWT and WT CD, of all places! I also learnt that the full and priceless "good news" is revealed (by Holy Spirit) rather than discovered (by man).

    I, too, learned some things "about" Christ from the NWT, etc. It was what was missing about that One... what I did NOT know (but thought, since he [supposedly] "gave his life for me", for which I "should" have been "grateful" that prompted me to go to the Father for more. I asked Him to let me know HIS truth about Christ... and the rest is history: Christ, the Holy Spirit himself (2 Corinthians 3:17; 1 John 2:1) came and revealed himself... and through him, the Father... to me!). When I asked why and he said because I had faith "the size of a mustard seed," I got a little arrogant about it. He then revealed to me that I only had that mustard seed... because he GAVE it to me! Because I kept seeking, knocking, asking... and [eventually] obeyed and responded when I heard his call LOLOLOL!

    The Holy Spirit can and often does reveal translation and other errors on the fly to ANY believer (simple Jesus follower).

    I agree! Such one has to put faith in what they hear "revealed"... from HIM. Rather than what they hear from some other "source," particularly man. Often times, however, one can THINK it is coming from/being revealed by the Master, but it is actually only something learned from man that "sounds/feels" familiar and so "must be" true/from God/Christ. I have learned that a LOT of what comes from him are things man has NEVER told us... because THEY don't know!

    You might enjoy parts of the chapter on the Bible called "Christianity is not a book religion" in http://www.christinyou.net/pdfs/Christiantynotrel.pdf.

    I might. I will let you know, if I find anything to comment on - LOLOL!

    Again, peace to you... and thank you for your very kind response!

    YOUR servant and fellow slave of Christ,

    SA

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Read it (the chapter), dear Fer (peace to you!... and thank you), and if nothing else, so many [here] should read that chapter. Because our Lord knows, it's what I've been trying to say for YEARS. Man oh man, if folks could at least get THAT, what the author is saying THERE... perhaps they can open their minds... and hearts... to receive more.

    Of course, they could... and SHOULD... go directly to Christ himself ("Come to ME!) and bypass both Mr. Fowler... myself... and others who have received this truth... so as to get it directly from the Source himself... themselves. Unfortunately, they've never been told... by those who purport to lead/teach/direct/shepherd them... that they could... and should.

    Here's hoping that they hear, one way or another... and do!

    Again, thank you... and peace to you!

    YOUR servant and fellow slave of Christ,

    SA

  • ProdigalSon
    ProdigalSon

    spiritually blind (physical, natural, carnal, legalistic, moralistic, ethnocentric and Gnostic) supremacist religionists

    I'm having a hard time understanding how "Gnostic" gets lumped in with all these other things when it is diametrically opposite to them. Can you explain? Thanks.

    And yes, two opposite audiences indeed. The enlightened, and the dumb asses.

  • EndofMysteries
    EndofMysteries

    Fern -

    I understand exactly what you are seeing and asking about. The possibilities I can think of and see so far, 1. Trap 2. a "revelation" of who is the God of the Israelites 3. Satan got some of his books and lies put in.

  • Fernando
    Fernando

    Hey ProdigalSon!

    Sorry, I should have clarified what I meant.

    The Watchtower is against any knowledge (gnosis in Greek) that might expose them - such as an education or reading Ray Franz' books. On the otherhand they favour us taking in knowledge (self-aggrandizing religious propaganda) that comes from them.

    So we might make a distinction on the source and purpose of knowledge - which can be either good or bad.

    The Watchtower taught us that we are saved and achieve self-righteousness by means of acquiring the supposedly "right" knowledge (gnosis in Greek). This is supremacist Gnosticism and is practiced by religious Gnostics.

    All religion effectively does the same, offering various paths to self-righteousness (mainly also legalism, moralism and ethnocentrism) where we can earn, deserve or pay for a good standing. This of course makes THEIR followers supremacist, self-righteous and judgmental of others that do not share their views and pursuits.

    Scripturally speaking we are legally saved (from the authority of our spiritual step-father the devil) as a free gift when we accept the invitation to "come as we are" (spiritually bankrupt) and have a RELATIONSHIP with Jesus (not humans) after hearing the "good message" about him.

    When John 17:3 is correctly translated it refers to this relationship as KNOWING translated from Greek where it refers to the intense level of intimacy where a man KNOWS a woman (sexually).

    The Watchtower being Gnostic mistranslates John 17:3 as: "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ". Of course the Watchtower next claims only they have and dispense this special gnosis or knowledge (which keeps changing) and we have to remain connected with them to be saved. This is completely against many scriptures that relate salvation to God granting us repentance (awareness of dysfunction) and faith (a wide opening of our spiritual eyes) in Jesus, as free unmerited gifts.

    Even the Watchtower's own Kingdom Interlinear Greek translation (KIT) contradicts the above translation.

    So Watchtower religionists might have "knowledge" about Jesus, but they do not "know" him in a personal relationship and are destined to hear the words of Matt 7:23: "And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness." Watchtower religionists practice "Christless Christianity" and therefore do not speak of Jesus from the heart as did Paul: "my Lord" or "our Lord". Neither do Watchtower religionists confess and promote Jesus from door to door as "my saviour", "my deliverer/liberator", "my atoner/reconciler", "my restorer" or "my older brother". They are too busy promoting religion (proselytising Matt 23:15) instead of promoting the "good news ABOUT Jesus" (evangelising like Paul).

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