Suicide & Suicidal Talk & How the Elder's Respond

by skeeter1 11 Replies latest jw friends

  • skeeter1
    skeeter1

    Old Law:

    In 1988, the California Supreme Court ruled that “nontherapist clergy” do not have a duty to refer suicidal persons to medical professionals. Nally v. Grace Community Church, 253 Cal. Rptr. 97 (1988). However, the court emphasized that its ruling applied only to clergy who are not licensed therapists. Courts in many other states have followed this ruling. The key point is this: There is no assurance that lay counselors working on behalf of a church share the significant protection from liability enjoyed by nontherapist clergy counselors. This is so whether or not the lay counselors are licensed counselors or psychologists under state law.

    Law Evolving (from http://www.michiganlawreview.org/assets/pdfs/106/7/dyer.pdf):

    In cases involving Schools where students committed suicide, two courts have now held laypersons responsible for suicide. The Shin and Schieszler courts seemingly brushed aside this rule of no affirmative duty by holding that the nonclinician defendants had a special relationship with Elizabeth—and thus owed her a duty of care— solely because her suicide was foreseeable.

    While the common law did not impose civil liability for a failure to pre- vent suicide, the law has evolved to make room for such liability in limited circumstances.40 Under a traditional tort analysis, courts deemed the suicidal person to be the sole proximate cause of his or her own death, and the law did not impose affirmative duties on others to prevent foreseeable harm.41 An exception to this no-duty rule emerged under the tort doctrine of special re- lationships.42 Restatement section 314A states that common carriers, innkeepers, landowners, and those who have custody of another person have a duty to take reasonable action to aid or protect that person.43 A comment accompanying section 314A clarifies that “[t]he relations listed are not in- tended to be exclusive,” and, in fact, “[t]he law appears . . . to be working slowly toward a recognition of the duty to aid or protect in any relation of dependence or of mutual dependence.”44 As previously noted, the Restate- ment does not further clarify how courts determine whether a special relationship exists.

    Courts have most commonly recognized a special relationship—which creates a duty to exercise reasonable care to prevent the suicide—in the con- texts of jails and hospitals and between patients and psychiatrists.45 In jails and hospitals, the defendant has “actual physical custody of and control over persons.”46 In relationships between patients and trained mental health pro- fessionals, the professionals are “deemed to have a special training and expertise enabling them to detect mental illness and/or the potential for sui- cide, and . . . the power or control necessary to prevent that suicide.”47 Courts have generally been reluctant to extend the special relationships duty to prevent suicide to noncustodial, nonprofessional counselor relationships.48

    So, what does the WTS and elders tell its followers who admit they are on the verge of committing suicde?

    I need your help. I need to know how the elders handle threats of suicides. I understand that the Elder's manual talks about suicide in Chapter 5, p. 58, Chapter 6 and Chapter 7, but I don't have the exact language.

    If someone says, "I am going to commit suicide" or "I don't want to live longer", what do the elders do? The legal duty is, now, likely to do nothing in most parts of the world. The moral duty is to call 911.

    If the person is facing a judicial meeting, then do the elders go easy(ier) on the person making a suicidal threat? (i.e. "I thought of killing myself rather then face judicial committee")

    Do the elders recommend a psychologist or mental health worker?

    Or, instead, do the elders look to how the JW community perceive the person (i.e. non-psychologists help the elders evaluate the person's mental capacity)? If that happens, isn't that messed up!

    If the suicidal person is considered a fringe JW, how does this factor into the decision to disfellowship the person (i.e. to get rid of the problem)?

    If someone (say another JW) calls 911 for the suicidal person, do the other JWs have to comment to affirm/criticize the person's actions?

    Any help would be appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Skeeter

    Help.

  • mariemcg
    mariemcg

    This is interesting,

    /i know of someone in the cong years ago who tried to tried to take their lives 3 times and failed... She's been in and out of hospital... i don't know of her fate now...

    Every time she did try to commit suicide she was DF, i bumped into her once and spoke to her and had a few drinks she said to me the last time she was found hanging by her husband with a bedsheet tied to a ceiling light!!! I think there has been a new understanding re suicide maybe more positive ..

    Marie

  • skeeter1
    skeeter1

    A disfellowshipped person commits suicide . . . chicken & egg.

    Did the disfellowshipping cause the suicide? Aid it? Push one over the edge?

    Did the mentally distressed person cause the disfellowshipping? Imagine someone who had a mental disease and didn't fit the bill of the goodie- brother or goodie-sister. Say , a sister was super depressed over sexual abuse that happened in her childhood. She gets disfellowshipped for immoral behavior, and commits suicide. Leading up to the disfellowshipping, she tells all of her depression and messed up sexual problems and her loneliness. She is the "problem" sister in the congregation, causing elders tons of bothersome and time-consuming counseling. So, she starts talking of suicide. The elders calm down her suicide talk, and quicly find a way to disfellowship her to get her out of their hair. They look to other JWs who do not like her as justification that she should not be part of Jah's Organization. The elders do not suggest psychological counseling to her. She asks for it, and they request she keeps the WTS out of the counseling. She doesn't go to counseling. She commits suicide. The elders and congregation chaulk it up as a crazy apostate, see what leaving Jehovah will do?

    Or, how about a depressed elderly sister? She talks about committing suicide, and been very depressed for many years. Elders come to talk with her. The elders think they did good and snapper her out of it. The elders do not suggest she call authorities, and they don't alert anyone. She even says she is fine now. Perpahs, peer pressure. The next day, when alone, she commits suicide.

    Any parts of this type a story recall a pattern? Is there something in the elder's manual that talks of this?

  • Violia
    Violia

    skeeter, just reading that makes me want to cry. Even the overworked volunteer on the suicide hotline cares more than the elders.

  • mariemcg
    mariemcg

    All of this was years ago... about 10-12 years i think.. She was so messed up esp with her up bringing. i remember her mother being quite old school and strict to the extent of hitting them but with myself being very loving towards me we were all very young children being brought up the mother was a Sign Lanuage Translator for my mother in the KH. as there was 3 sisters 2 of which are DF- the second sister one of her twins was so badly bullied at school that he commited suicide at the age of 12 or 13 not sure of the age but very young! IT's so tragic ... i was so upset when i heard. The family as i'm aware do not talk to her..

  • Aussie Oz
    Aussie Oz

    Either way, they can't handle the subject

    It is like a huge shame to THEM and the BORG. It is all about themselves and they have no understanding, empathy nor desire to actually help for the right reasons.

    And if a local JW does kill themselves? Literaly bury or cremate the victim as fast as possible and with no service.

    totally heartless, useless bunch who have no right to be considered ministers of god.

    oz

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    Here's one of the quotes:

    Attempted suicide may be the result of deep despair or major depression. Deal carefuUy and compassionately with such a persono In most cases a judicial hearing is not required.-Ps. 88:3, 17, 18; Prov. 15:13; Eccl. 7:7; w90 3/1 pp. 5-9; 3/15 pp. 26-30; g90 9/8 pp. 22-23; w83 8/1 pp. 3-11.

  • JeffT
    JeffT

    Darn, hit submit to fast.

    It is also suggested that if a person threatens suicide at a JC they might want to give him a couple of days to get himself together before proceeding. If necessary and/or reasonable they can just write up notes about what was going on, sign it and put in the congregation confidential files. There are general notes (not necessarily dealing with mentally unstable or suicidal people) about contacting branch offices if necessary, and perhaps bring in an elder from another congregation.

    I could not find any references to referring people to medical or psychological professionals, which would strike me as the correct response. Basically anybody that is problem can expect to be tossed over the side.

    The watchtower's solution to any issue is to shoot its wounded and tell every body else to get to meeting and go out in field service.

  • trueblue
    trueblue

    I mentioned this before on a thread, but I knew my brother in another state was in serious emotional trouble, I read in a WTS daily bible reading that JW's ever hearing of another baptized member in trouble that other JW's would go out of their way to help the baptized member, and from statements that my brother made to me in the past when he come here to visit and wanting to visit this particular elder, I thought that it would be good for this elder to call my brother, so I told this elder and the elder said "well I will have to give him a call then" and he took the phone number I gave him, but he did not call my brother and a few weeks later my brother commited suicide.

  • 00DAD
    00DAD

    The word "SUICIDE" occurs only six times in the "Shepherd the Flock of God" book. Of these, four occurrences are in the text, the first one is in the Table of Contents and the last is in the index.

    In the text they are found at:

    Suicide:

    • attempted 5:4 (p. 59)
      • Attempted suicide may be the result of deep despair or major depression. Deal carefully and compassionately with such a person. In most cases a judicial hearing is not required. - Ps. 88:3, 17; Prov. 15:13; Eccl. 7:7; w90 3/1 pp. 5-9; 3/15 pp. 26-30; g90 9/8 pp. 22-23; w83 8/1 pp. 3-11.
    • threatened 6:16 (p. 86)
      • If the Accused Threatens Suicide - In judicial cases where the accused threatens suicide, it may be best for the committee to suspend the hearing to focus on helping him regain his balance. (see 7:12) They should assure him of the committee's desire to help him, then broach the subject of depression and suicide, using the Scriptures and Bible-based publications. (Prov. 3:11, 12; 4:13; Heb. 12:5, 6, 11-13) Depending upon his emotional state, it may be best to do this a day or two later. The elders can prepare by reviewing articles that will help them deal sensitively with the depressed individual. (w00 9/15 pp. 3-7; w88 10/15 pp. 25-29; 11/15 pp. 21-24; w82 6/1 pp. 9-14) The judicial committee should avoid prolonging the case unnecessarily, as this can cause stress for the accused. They should take notes for the confidential file, outlining the dates of their conversations and the scriptures and articles that were considered. They should sign it and place it in the file for the case. The judicial committee should communicate with the branch office if there are questions about a certain case.
    • Note, I underlined and bolded the word "suicide" above the make it easier to find. The emphasis is not in the original.

    I have scans but haven't figured out how to paste images from my computer in this forum. I know how to insert an image that is referenced from the web, but not when the image is on my computer.

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