Jehovah's Witnesses are entitled to their own OPINION

by Terry 25 Replies latest jw friends

  • Terry
    Terry

    We've all heard the old saying: "Everybody is entitled to their own opinion."

    I'd like to talk about the phrase that comes after that one: "....but, NOBODY is entitled to their own FACTS."

    I can talk to you about my toothache and how much it hurts and you will probably sympathize with the pain. But, I'm the only one really feeling it.

    After all, my pain is MY pain and the best anybody else can do is try and relate to some similar feeling of their own.

    This is SUBJECTIVE empathy. But, my toothache is OBJECTIVE pain.

    That's pretty clear.

    But, for you, there is no way you can actually KNOW I really have a toothache at all! I could be faking it!

    There are a lot of things that will always remain Subjective which others cannot access DIRECTLY and have to rely on sympathy, empathy, fellow feeling, trust, etc.

    Let's steer clear of those for a moment.

    WHAT ABOUT OBJECTIVE FACT?

    Is there such a thing?

    If we were all gathered at the beach and everybody built a bonfire, that is an OBJECTIVE fact for all of us to acknowledge. But, each person will "feel" the warmth a bit differently and see the fire from a different angle of view. None of which affects the actual bonfire in the least!

    What is OBJECTIVE about the bonfire? The FACT of its existence, location, temperature per se and brightness in and of itself.

    Anybody who denied the existence of such a bonfire would not be correctly identifying the FACTs.

    Why? Because a Fact corresponds with a reality and NOT A PERSONAL POINT OF VIEW.

    Reality IS what it is; whether you acknowledge it or not!

    Small frightened children pull the covers over their head when it is dark. Some people cover their eyes in a horror film. What's going on there?

    Any actual threat not sensed seems to go away! REAL THREATS do not.

    Jehovah's Witnesses actually have their own set of OPINIONS which they all agree to treat as FACTS.

    This does not miraculously transform opinion into fact, however.

    What is the true test which distinguishes FACT from opinion?

    Do you know? How can you easily identify/distinguish one from the other?

    Is it just a matter of getting enough people to agree with you? If that were true, the Chinese would be the only people with a lock on reality!

    You can't vote out that bonfire, after all.

    A number of years ago, a small religious cult committed suicide together after agreeing that an approaching comet was the "mother ship" come to take them away! This was OPINION treated as though it were FACT.

    Millions of people consult Astrology books to determine their fate or future. Thousands of people wear copper bracelets, rabbit foot charms, lucky bowling shirts and religious medalians to ward off bad luck. They feel there is a "reality" to the effect. Need I convince you it is only OPINION?

    How much proof would an irrational person have to have to become convinced of something?

    FACT: "truth" is what matches actual reality rather than opinion.

    Are there tests for what is True? Are there standards and rules? Sure!

    Primary truths

    There are three "primary truths" inherently accepted in the investigation of knowledge and truth. They are the first fact (the fact of our existence), the first principle (the principle of non-contradiction) and the first condition (the ability of the mind to know truth).

    A person objecting to these essential truths cannot set a standard of proof without implicitly accepting the premises.

    Validity

    Truth is the agreement of a premise or judgment with reality. Contrastingly, validity is the adherence to rules of logic in the relationship between premises and conclusions.

    Evidence of certainty

    Truth is not usually self-apparent and must be proven through rational analysis.

    For example, the boiling point of water must be discovered and tested. if this is doubted, the experiment can be recreated and the evidence of truth confirmed. To be of rational value, evidence must be objective.

    Three possible sources of objective evidence:

    1. the evidence of the senses

    2.the evidence of rational thought

    3.the evidence of expert testimony...however, there is great need for caution with expert accounts, there must be a willingness to challenge authority. When experts have different opinions you must discard Authority as a means of establishing truth.

    Coherence

    The simplest theory which most effectively reconciles all facts may be considered most likely to be true. Coherence is difficult to dispute as a criterion of truth, since arguing against coherence is validating incoherence, which is inherently illogical

    Consistency

    Correct statements do not contradict themselves.

    Accordingly, an individual is consistent if he does not contradict himself.

    It remains a necessary condition for the truth of any argument, owing to the law of noncontradiction. The value of a proof largely lies in its ability to reconcile individual facts into a coherent whole.

    In view of the above, if Jehovah's Witnesses were to start a publishing campaign warning people that a momentous event would occur within the next 7 years and that event did NOT occur--it would not matter what OPINION anybody had about the TRUTH of the warning or FACTS of the failure.

    In 1968, for example, an advertising and preaching campaign for the END OF 6000 YEARS OF HUMAN EXISTENCE went into full force for 7 years.

    It culminated in a NON-event. The FACTS contradicted the message and the authority of Jehovah's Witnesses and their source.

    Jehovah's Witnesses were entitled to their own opinion about 1975. The FACTS, however, destroyed all credibility.

    The unwillingness to abandon their source authority is further EVIDENCE of unreal and spurious foundational beliefs.

    Put simply: they embrace ERROR while caling it the TRUTH.

    Calling error the same as truth is evidence of LYING.

    You can't have an opinion about THE TRUTH. Reality is as reality does.

    Jehovah's Witnesses "reality" is mere OPINION.

    Some people will argue with you all day about that......sadly.

  • N.drew
    N.drew

    They say they believe God will raise up a greater prophet than Moses and they "should listen to him". Then they say, no don't listen to him, listen to them who are listening to him. Logic has a major headache! I don't know that, but it is my OPINION. Thanks Terry! I like how you make spaces, it's easier to read that way. Happy day!!

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I agree with you that Witnesses report opinion as fact. But objective facts are difficult to ascertain. I know from casual reading that scientists, esp. physicists, would quality many of your statements. Frankly, I become confused with their arguments. It seems that the mere act of observing something alters it. My science background isn't strong enough to understand but a rough approximation of what they are discussing.

    There was partner I worked with from Yale Law. He was so brilliant across a range of subjects. The problem was that he could not successfully interace with mere mortals. People's mouths would drop open as he would discuss what seemed to be pedestrian art exhibit. I know from law school that writing facts on a brief (facts that both parties agree as to what happened) is the most challenging part. It is an art form.

    I believe there are objective facts on a normal level. Only throughout history, people assumed that what they termed objective was the fact, rather than an opinion. I think there is some advanced thinking when you are able to sort out facts from opinions for yourselves. Opinions are just as valuable. Growing up in a diverse culture helps. When I first met Jewish people when I was a young, I could not believe that they did not read the genealogies in the gospels and fulfilled prophecies bit and conclude that Jesus had to be the Messiah. It was good for me to realize that people did not automatically believe what I was taught at home.

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    I agree with you...

    Now facts and reality are interpreted and processed in my brain and my brain only. You and I have a different perception of those facts even sitting next to each other.

    What I mean is that even a simple fact is processed diferently on every different brain. My reality is different than yours even if we agree on what it is.

    The only person that cares about my reality is me because i am the only one perceiving it like me..

    So what matters most? reality or perception?

    To a color blind person it doestn matter what blue is because to them Blue is not blue it could be other color, to them no matter what FACT is their perception is what matters.

    So if perception is what really matters...... is reality that important?

    I hAVE met a lot of people that are not that bright, that smart, that logic.... therfore they dont see or perceive things others do. therefore worry less about some issues that to others are important. some are even happy..... or think they are happy..... but to me they arent..... but they think they are... and to them is more important what they perceive than what I think reality is....

    My parents think they are gonna live forever in paradise..... thats their reality.... because that is what they think..... to me.. they are nutts! but that is my perception of their reality. I wouldnt be happy with their perception of reality. But I am happy with mine..

    So does it matter reality what they believe?

    My only reality is that I bothered by others perception of MY reality..... and that is a fact..... or is it my opinion?

  • cyberjesus
    cyberjesus

    i like that phrase... they embrace the error calling it truth..... i would argue that not all of them. only the ones who make that error a truth. the one who realize the truth is an error then they will reject that truth and create a new truth.

    Whos truth is more important? to you maybe yours. to them maybe theirs.. i would say to some....

    I was in error a while back by believing their truth.. but to me it was real. and in my head that was all that matter. but then i realized that my perception of things changed and now what i believd to be truth was really a lie..... so I changed... i left their cult....

    but I still perceived God.... I swear to him that I did..... ha, or so I thought. so I perceived. and then my perception of the facts changed. and now I have zero perception of any facts that would prove his existance.

    So now my world is soooo different than what it was 4 years ago.... I changed my perception with more kknowledge.

    What if,,,, what if my perceeption changes again? what if we dont really exists and this PERCEPTION of facts is as wrong as it was 4 years ago?

    Oh brother, I think I should stop stop playing video games and start praying more :-)

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    I thought JWs weren't allowed their own opinions, I thought they could only accept anything underlined in magazines with beach balls and lions?

  • BluesBrother
    BluesBrother

    So if perception is what really matters...... is reality that important?

    My old and deaf Auntie perceived that the road was clear to cross, but the reality of the bus hitting her, was very important....

    The family perceives that the world is so bad that Armageddon will destroy it soon. It is as clear as day to them but when the reality of growing old hits them it will be no less important.

    WT 92 7/15

    Reject Worldly Fantasies, Pursue Kingdom Realities

    "14 How, then, can we pursue Kingdom realities? Our hope must be securely based on strong conviction. God’s promised new world must be real to us. (2 Peter 3:13) And we must have faith in the promise that God “will wipe out every tear from [our] eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.” (Revelation 21:4) How can we be sure that this is no fantasy? It is bound to be realized in God’s due time, for it is impossible for him to lie"

    Note how all this is presented as "God's" promises - in reality it is the promise of the men at the WTS

  • clearpoison
    clearpoison

    Independent is it factual or not, they truly have right to their own opinion. They may believe as they wish, as much as I can believe in what I wish. I have no clue if any party is right or wrong or are we all horribly wrong but it really do not matter.

    CP

  • Terry
    Terry

    Thanks Terry! I like how you make spaces, it's easier to read that way.

    I was an artist and in the Art Biz for over 20 years. Presentation is velly velly important!

    Thanks for noticing:)

    (Sometimes those stupid advertisements screw up the careful formatting!! Gr-r-r-r-r)

  • Terry
    Terry

    It seems that the mere act of observing something alters it.

    People tend to take that the wrong way!

    In order to locate a tiny subatomic particle something has to bounce off of it (like an electron in an electron microscope) and THAT alters it!

    The way New Age popularizers phrase it (deliberately spooky) it makes it sound like the observer is causing the alteration.

    NO! It is the equipment used to measure velocity or location which employs an interruptive force that is doing it.

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