Neutrinos faster than the speed of light...

by EntirelyPossible 34 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    Referencing back to this thread, http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/216165/1/What-is-truth-COULD-Einstein-Have-Been-Wrong....

    I was doing some reading on the neutrino thing and I discovered somthing I didn't know, a subtle but important distinction I think a lot of us get wrong about relativity and nothing being able to move faster than the speed of light.

    There are two theories of relativity from Einstein, general and special. General relativity (GR) describes gravity, gravity wells, the expansion of the universe, gravitional lensing, among other things. Special relativity (SR) describes things like mass-energy equivalence (e=mc^2), the expansion of the universe and spacetime itself.

    SR doesn't say nothing can go faster than the speed of light (C in the equation). It says that nothing can break the light speed barrier if it has a positive rest mass. This is because as speed increases, mass increases proportionally and passing from sub to superlimunal speed would require an object to travel AT the speed of light at which point motion would require infinite energy because the object would have infinite mass. The same is true for an object with positive rest mass passing from super to sub luminal speeds.

    Photons, when they are created, are created AT the speed of light in a vacumn. They can go slower if traveling through a medium, but never faster. They have a zero rest mass.

    Neutrinos, however, have an unknown speed at the time of their creation. They DO have mass. If, at the time of their creation, they are ALREADY moving faster than the speed of light, relativity is not broken at all.

    Because neutrinos are electrically neutral, they passt through matter without interacting with it. Almost 65 billion solar neutrinos pass through every square centimeter of the earth exposed to sunlight, pass out the other side and stream into space. We detect them when they DO interact with a proton, are absorbed and create a positron and electron, which annihilate each other almost immediately and give off gamma rays we can detect.

    Now, should the measurements taken that show them moving faster than the speed of light turn out to be correct, it STILL doesn't mean that SR is wrong (neutrinos have mass, remember), it may mean that they are a type of matter that has mass, but not in the way we traditionally think of it and there is something more to be discovered about what mass means. It might mean that neutrinos can never be at rest, as soon as they interact with a proton they convert into something else without ever slowing down, it might mean they interact with a proton and turn it into an election and and a positron and keep moving.

    Most importantly, if the measurements are correct, it's doesn't at ALL necessarily mean that Einstein was wrong, just that he was incomplete. And we already knew that.

    Or maybe they measured wrong.

  • Gladring
    Gladring

    Thanks for explaining that.

  • WTWizard
    WTWizard

    One more question: What is the relative point? Suppose you are already traveling in one direction--how fast is light going to go relative to your location? And, suppose I shine a light ahead of me. The light is moving at the speed of light in all directions despite that the earth is moving. There has to be a neutral reference point where velocity against that point is zero, or the whole theory breaks down.

    For instance, suppose I am traveling 99% of the speed of light in one direction, and you are traveling 99% of the speed of light in the opposite direction? To each of us, the other is traveling faster than light. Just like you traveling at 55 MPH, my traveling the opposite direction in the opposite lane at 55 MPH--the difference is more than 55 MPH. So, who gets the speeding ticket? Unless you have a reference "Speed Limit 186,282 MPH" sign, "the speed of light" becomes meaningless--and, hence faster than light travel could be accomplished.

  • bohm
    bohm

    WTWizard: "For instance, suppose I am traveling 99% of the speed of light in one direction, and you are traveling 99% of the speed of light in the opposite direction? To each of us, the other is traveling faster than light. "

    no! That is the amazing thing, you will both clearly see the other travelling at less than the speed of light. Furthermore you will both see time is going slower for the other at the same time. amazing isnt it?

    Here is another example: Suppose you are in a train travelling at the speed of light minus 2km/h. You are walking down the isle at 4km/h. I stand at the side of the track and observe you. According to einstein, i will not see you travelling at more than the speed of light relative to me.You can also shoot out light in any direction and everyone will observe it moving at c.

    EP: Special relativity is about intertial systems (linear movement). GR is about accelerated systems (gravity).

    At any rate, I dont think you are correct in saying there is such a simple fix to the problem... for instance, how do you define "at the same time", have faster-than-light information transfer, and not violate causality? I think one has to give up causality...

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    Bohm, I was simply describing some of the things the two topics covers. I think I did that accurately.

    And if there is a fix, I didn't say it would be simple. For instance, if it turns out that neutrinos CAN travel faster than the speed of light, that would mean their mass would be negative or imaginary. Maybe. If it's confirmed, simple isn't the word.

    And, since we're being nitpicky, it's not according to Einstein that we will see time going slower for the other person at the same time ;)

    Either way, your input and knowledge is always appreciated.

  • shamus100
    shamus100

    Jesus, EP. Who the f*** hit you with the nice stick?

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    I'm trying to be a nicer person, Shamus. Or apply my Righteous Asshole personality more judiciously. Or I'm letting it all build up for special occasion so it will be epic like a goddamn supernova blowing up.

  • shamus100
    shamus100

    I'm betting on the latter. It's what I generally do.

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    WTWizard:

    According to the principles of time dilation, the answers to your questions are no, faster than light travel would not be acheived. You're describing the galilean transformation.

  • glenster

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