What would you say in reply?

by outsmartthesystem 7 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • outsmartthesystem
    outsmartthesystem

    Need a little help here.

    I am in a discussion about Jeremiah the 25th Chapter. (and Jehovah "calling to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation") My argument is very basic. How did God call to account against the King of Babylon (thus supposedly ending the 70 years of desolation) in 537BC.....2 years after Babylon fell?

    The response I got: "Cyrus overthrew the Babylonian King 2 years prior, therefore he was ACTING as the Babylonian king 2 years later when the Jews were released and thus the prophesy held true. Jehovah's "calling to account" was therefore against Cyrus who was now king of the Babylonians in 537BC"

    Stretched reasoning like this really irritates me....yet it is a staple of Jehovah's Witnesses. How would you respond?

  • paulnotsaul
    paulnotsaul

    I don't know if this is the reply your looking for, but here it goes. In this book I'm reading it says that Russell at the age of eighteen got interested in just when Christ was to come. To solve this problem, he began to study the bible. He very soon published his findings in a pamphlet entitled The Object and Manner of the Lord's Return. For centuries, great minds of the church have wrestled with the problem of the Second Coming, but Russell felt that he had solved it in almost no time at all. Russells pamphlet consists of a lengthy, complicated, and incorrect interpretation of unrelated Scriptures combined with an intricate method of computing time. The end result of his labors was the statement that Jesus Christ would return in 1874. Later,Russell changed the date to 1914. This return was not to be a physical one, but a spiritual one. In other words, when Christ would return, He would not be seen. This of course contradicts Revelation 1: 7. Much of the teaching of the Witnesses revolves around Russell's views of the Second Coming. So since Russell was wrong about this date who's to say he was wright about any dates or societys dates regarding anything in the bible? Further more, direct them to Acts 1:6-7 to see where chronology stands in the bible according to Jesus. Hope this helps. peace paulnotsaul

  • ShadesofGrey
    ShadesofGrey

    First of all, Cyrus was called Jehovah's anointed one.

    Secondly, ask them when did Jesus return? Then ask when was Jesus in his temple inspecting the faithful and discreet slave? Even better, write down the questions and their answers. Then have them read Matthew 24:23-27

    23 “Then if anyone says to YOU , ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or, ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will give great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones. 25 Look! I have forewarned YOU . 26 Therefore, if people say to YOU , ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner chambers,’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes out of eastern parts and shines over to western parts, so the presence of the Son of man will be. --Matthew 24

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    Ask them to prove that Cyrus released the Jews in 537. There is no evidence of that. Cyrus started ruling in 538. The Watchtower claims the Jews were back in Jerusalem in 537, but cannot actually prove that either. Remember, the Watchtower used to say they arrived back in 536, but when they realised there was no year 0 they simply started to say 537 so that they could hold onto the year 607.

    By the sounds of the discussion, getting bogged down in the details with that person will not get you anywhere. They will make any unsubstantiated claim to support what they want to believe.

    You need to refocus the argument. Ask why they think Daniel 4 has two fulfillments. No other prophecy in Daniel does, so why should that one?

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    The response I got: "Cyrus overthrew the Babylonian King 2 years prior, therefore he was ACTING as the Babylonian king 2 years later when the Jews were released and thus the prophesy held true. Jehovah's "calling to account" was therefore against Cyrus who was now king of the Babylonians in 537BC"

    ... How would you respond?

    I would respond by simply asking for what error Cyrus was being called to account or punished, and in what way was Cyrus and "the [Babylonian] nation" punished by Jehovah in 537 BCE? Ask for scriptural and historical support for her/his reasoning (s/he hasn't a leg to stand on so s/he won't be able to).

  • reslight2
    reslight2

    paulnotsaul stated:

    In this book I'm reading it says that Russell at the age of eighteen got interested in just when Christ was to come.

    At the age of 18, Russell became interested in the return of Christ, but he held little interest in "when", as far as setting any specific date. According ot this own words, he did not become interested in any date pertaining to Christ's return until about 1876.

    paulnotsaul stated:

    To solve this problem, he began to study the bible.

    Russell did not begin to study to the Bible to solve the problem of "when" Christ was to return, but he became interested in the purpose of Christ's return. This is what led him to study the Bible.

    Russell's own words:

    I have been a Bible student since I first had my attention called to the second coming of our Lord, by Jonas Wendel, a Second Advent Preacher, about 1869, who was then preaching the burning of the world as being due in 1873. But though he first awakened my interest on the subject, I was not a convert, either to the time he suggested nor to the events he predicted. I, in company with others in Pittsburgh, organized and maintained a bible class for the searching of the Scriptures, meeting every Sunday.

    We reasoned that, if Christ’s coming were to end probation, and bring irrevocable ruin upon ninety-nine in a hundred of mankind; then it could scarcely be considered desirable, neither could we pray with proper spirit, “Come, Lord Jesus, Come quickly!” ( Revelation 22:20 ) We had rather request — much as we should “love his appearing” — that he remain away and our sufferings and trials continue so that “if by any means we might save some.” ( 2 Timothy 4:8 ; 1 Corinthians 9:22 ) Not only so, but great masses of scripture referring to the Millennial glory and teaching that “All nations which thou hast made shall come and worship before thee,” &c., &c., would be left unfulfilled if at His coming there should be a wreck of matter and a crush of world. — Psalm 22:27 ; 67:2 ; 72:11 ; 86:9 ; Isaiah 2:2 ; 25:7 .

    We first saw Millennial glory — then the glorious work which is offered us as His Bride; that we are by faith the “seed of Abraham;” and as such, heirs of the promises, &c., in whom “all the families of the earth shall be blest.” (Galatians 3) This most certainly points to a probation in the future after He has come. Thus, speedily, steadily and surely God led us to recognize the second coming of our Lord as being not the sunset of all hope to mankind, but the “rising of the Sun of Righteousness with healing in his wings.” — Malachi 4:2

    http://ctr.reslight.net/?p=346

    Note that initially Russell did NOT accept the time elements of Christ's return; he was interested in the purpose of Christ's return. It was not until around 1876 that Russell became interested in the time of Christ's return.

    paulnotsaul stated:

    He very soon published his findings in a pamphlet entitled The Object and Manner of the Lord's Return. For centuries, great minds of the church have wrestled with the problem of the Second Coming, but Russell felt that he had solved it in almost no time at all. Russells pamphlet consists of a lengthy, complicated, and incorrect interpretation of unrelated Scriptures combined with an intricate method of computing time. The end result of his labors was the statement that Jesus Christ would return in 1874.

    Actually, the book, The Object and Manner of Our Lord's Return, never mentions 1874; that book was about the "obejct" -- purpose -- and the manner of Christ's return. This book was published in 1877, and thus even if it had mentioned 1874 -- which is does not -- it would not have been a statement that Christ was to return in 1874, since 1874 had already passed. Nor was this book the result of some hasty preparation, for it was he result of about eight years of study. At the time of the publication of this work, Russell was not longer 18 years old, but was about 26 years old.

    Russell stated:

    The Lord gave us many helps in the study of His word, among whom stood prominently, our dearly beloved and aged brother, George Storrs, who, both by word and pen, gave us much assistance; but we ever sought not to be followers of men, however good or wise, but “Followers of God, as dear children.” ( Ephesians 5:1 ) Thus growing in grace and knowledge for seven years, the year 1876 found us. — 2 Peter 3:18 .

    http://ctr.reslight.net/?p=346

    The book, The Object and Manner of Our Lord's Return, may be found online at:
    http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/contents/russell/object.pdf

    paulnotsaul stated:

    Later,Russell changed the date to 1914

    In 1876, Russell spent much time with N. H. Barbour, from whom Russell accepted the date 1874 as when Christ had already returned. He never changed the date of Christ's return in 1874 to 1914; Russell died in 1916 still with the belief that Christ had returned in 1874. The year 1874 came about a result of decades of study by many different people; not that all of these people arrived to the year 1874, but their work contributed to realization that the time prophecies point to that year.

    paulnotsaul stated:

    This return was not to be a physical one, but a spiritual one. In other words, when Christ would return, He would not be seen. This of course contradicts Revelation 1: 7.

    Revelation 1:7 is obviously symbolic, being part of book that is using symbolism throughout. Obviously, however, the person who wrote this never actually read the book, "The Object and Manner of Our Lord's Return", and evidently does not realize that if Christ returns in the flesh that he sacrificed for sin, then there has actually been no real sacrifice of Jesus for sin.
    Jesus Died in the Flesh, Raised in the Spirit

    Jesus Died a Human Being – Raised a Spirit Being

  • Miles3
    Miles3
    Revelation 1:7 is obviously symbolic, being part of book that is using symbolism throughout. Obviously, however, the person who wrote this never actually read the book, "The Object and Manner of Our Lord's Return", and evidently does not realize that if Christ returns in the flesh that he sacrificed for sin, then there has actually been no real sacrifice of Jesus for sin.

    Sounds familiar. Where have I seen those words used before?

  • mP
    mP

    reslight

    the john of revelation doesnt know jesus. somebody replaced lord with jesus christ at a later time in a few key spots.

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