Darwinism's Sterility

by ninjaturtle 19 Replies latest jw friends

  • ninjaturtle
    ninjaturtle

    Behe on the flagellum, an irreducibly complex biological system that baffles scientists:

    http://www.arn.org/docs/behe/mb_brresp.htm

    What has biochemistry found that must be explained? Machines--literally, machines made of molecules. Let's look at just one example. The flagellum is an outboard motor that many bacteria use to swim. It consists of a rotary propeller, motor, and stationary framework. Yet this short description can't do justice to the machine's full complexity. Writing of the flagellum in Cell, Lucy Shapiro of Stanford University marvels, "To carry out the feat of coordinating the ordered expression of about 50 genes, delivering the protein products of these genes to the construction site, and moving the correct parts to the upper floors while adhering to the design specification with a high degree of accuracy, the cell requires impressive organizational skills." Without any one of a number of parts, the flagellum does not merely work less efficiently; it does not work at all. Like a mousetrap it is irreducibly complex and therefore cannot have arisen gradually.

    The rotary nature of the flagellum has been recognized for about 25 years. During that time not a single paper has been published in the biochemical literature even attempting to show how such a machine might have developed by natural selection. Darwin's theory is completely barren when it comes to explaining the origin of the flagellum or any other complex biochemical system.

    The sterility of Darwinism indicates that it is the wrong framework for understanding the basis of life. As I argue in my book, an alternative hypothesis is both natural and obvious: systems such as the flagellum were intentionally designed by an intelligent agent. Just as in the everyday world we immediately conclude design when we see a complex, interactive system such as a mousetrap, there is no reason to withhold the same conclusion from interactive molecular systems. This conclusion may have theological implications that make some people uncomfortable; nonetheless it is the job of science to follow the data wherever they lead, no matter how disturbing.

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit

    And in your book, who do you argue designed the intelligent designer?

    Expatbrit

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    expatbrit:That is another subject altogether. Lets keep on track................

  • expatbrit
    expatbrit

    No, this is the subject:

    Just as in the everyday world we immediately conclude design when we see a complex, interactive system such as a mousetrap, there is no reason to withhold the same conclusion from interactive molecular systems.
    The subject is the old "something complex must have had a designer" argument.

    Well, OK, but obviously the designer (whether molecularly composed or not) must be more complex than the objects he designs. So who designed the designer?

    If the complex designer was not designed, then something simpler such as the physical universe around us, could also have no designer.

    This is the fatal flaw in the argument that something complex must be designed. It is very much the subject of the thread.

    Expatbrit

  • ninjaturtle
    ninjaturtle

    What you fail to realize is that I offer no alternate hypothesis, I'm simply exposing the serious flaws in darwinistic theory.

    One alternate hypothesis, however, is panspermia, but there are many more. I do not rigidly adhere to any one belief system as you guys do. I consider many different possibilities, unlike the narrow-minded priests of darwinism.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    expatbrit:

    That is a common tactic of Evolutionists, prove there is a God as the issue. However, you can still debate the issue of Evolution on its merits without bringing in religion...........

    ""The debate question is: Does the scientific evidence favor creation or evolution?""

    How about:

    ""debate will consist of only scientific evidence and the logical inferences from that evidence. Religious ideas and beliefs, while possibly correct, will not be allowed."""

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    FYI: panspermia

    Cosmic Ancestry is a new theory of evolution and the origin of life on Earth. It holds that life on Earth was seeded from space, and that life's evolution to higher forms depends on genetic programs that come from space. It is a wholly scientific, testable theory for which evidence is accumulating.

    Hoyle
    The first point, which deals with the origin of life on Earth, is known as panspermia — literally, "seeds everywhere." Its earliest recorded advocate was the Greek philosopher Anaxagoras, thought to be Socrates's teacher. However, Aristotle's theory of spontaneous generation came to be preferred by science for more than two thousand years. Then on April 9, 1864, French chemist Louis Pasteur announced his great experiment disproving spontaneous generation as it was then held to occur. In the 1870s, British physicist Lord Kelvin and German physicist Hermann von Helmholtz reinforced Pasteur and argued that life could come from space. And in the first decade of the 1900s, Swedish chemist and Nobel laureate Svante Arrhenius theorized that bacterial spores propelled through space by light pressure were the seeds of life on Earth.

    But in the 1920s, Russian biochemist Alexander Oparin and English geneticist J.B.S. Haldane, writing independently, revived the doctrine of spontaneous generation in a more sophisticated form. In the new version, the spontaneous generation of life no longer happens on Earth, takes too long to observe in a laboratory, and has left no clues about its occurrence. Supporting this theory, in 1953, American chemists Stanley Miller and Harold Urey showed that some amino acids can be chemically produced from amonia and methane. That experiment is now famous, and the Oparin - Haldane paradigm still prevails today.

    Starting in the 1970s, British astronomers Fred Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinghe rekindled interest in panspermia. By careful spectroscopic observation and analysis of light from distant stars they found new evidence, traces of life, in the intervening dust. They also proposed that comets, which are largely made of water-ice, carry bacterial life across galaxies and protect it from radiation damage along the way. One aspect of this research program, that interstellar dust and comets contain organic compounds, has been pursued by others as well. It is now universally accepted that space contains the "ingredients" of life. This development could be the first hint of a huge paradigm shift. But mainstream science has not accepted the hard core of modern panspermia, that whole cells seeded life on Earth.

    Wickramasinghe

    Hoyle and Wickramasinghe also broadened or generalized panspermia to include a new understanding of evolution. While accepting the fact that life on Earth evolved over the course of about four billion years, they say that the genetic programs for higher evolution cannot be explained by random mutation and recombination among genes for single-celled organisms, even in that long a time: the programs must come from somewhere beyond Earth. In a nutshell, their theory holds that all of life comes from space. It incorporates the original panspermia in the same way that General Relativity incorporates Special Relativity. Their expanded theory can well be termed "strong" panspermia.

    Meanwhile on a different track, in the early 1970s, British chemist and inventor James Lovelock proposed a theory that life controls Earth's environment to make it suitable for life. The theory, which he named Gaia, has gained a small but growing, sometimes cultish following. However, seen from a neo-Darwinian perspective, the theory looks teleological. It is hard to imagine how purposeful Gaian processes that take millions of years could be discovered by trial and error. In response to such criticism, Lovelock has retreated somewhat from some of his earlier bold claims for Gaia. Here we endorse Lovelock's theory at its original strength. We propose that Gaian processes are not blindly found and peculiar to Earth, but are pre-existent and universal — life from space brings Gaian processes with it. We suggest that Gaian processes are necessary for higher forms of life to emerge and succeed on any planet.

    Lovelock
    We are calling the union of Lovelock's Gaia with Hoyle and Wickramasinghe's expanded theory of panspermia Cosmic Ancestry. Its account of evolution and the origin of life on Earth is profoundly different from the prevailing scientific paradigm — the theory challenges not merely the answers but the questions that are popular today. Cosmic Ancestry implies, we find, that life can only descend from ancestors that were at least as highly evolved as itself. And it means, we believe, that there can be no origin of life from nonliving matter in the finite past. Without supernatural intervention, therefore, we conclude that life must have always existed. Although these conclusions cut across the boundaries between science, philosophy, and religion, we believe they are grounded in good evidence. In fact, new evidence that supports many aspects Cosmic Ancestry is coming in rapidly. In the following pages we will explain how these and other recent developments support Cosmic Ancestry:

    19 May 1995: two scientists at Cal Poly showed that bacteria can survive without any metabolism for at least 25 million years; probably they are immortal.
    24 November 1995: The New York Times ran a story about bacteria that can survive radiation much stronger than any that Earth has ever experienced.
    7 August 1996: NASA announced fossilized evidence of ancient life in meteorite ALH 84001 from Mars.
    27 October 1996: geneticists showed evidence that many genes are much older than the fossil record would indicate. Subsequent studies have strengthened this finding.
    29 July 1997: a NASA scientist announced evidence of fossilized microscopic life forms in a meteorite not from any planet.
    Spring, 1998: a microfossil that was found in a meteorite and photographed in 1966, was recognized by a Russian microbiologist as a magnetotactic bacterium.
    Fall, 1998: NASA's public position on life-from-space shifted dramatically.
    4 January 1999: NASA officially recognized the possibility that life on Earth comes from space.
    19 March 1999: NASA scientists announced that two more meteorites hold even stronger fossilized evidence for past life on Mars.
    26 April 2000: the team operating the mass spectrometer on NASA's Stardust mission announced the detection of very large organic molecules in space. Nonbiological sources for organic molecules so large are not known.
    19 October 2000, a team of biologists and a geologist announced the revival of bacteria that are 250 million years old, strengthening that case that bacterial spores can be immortal.
    13 December 2000: a NASA team demonstrated that the magnetosomes in Mars meteorite ALH 84001 are biological.
    The case for Cosmic Ancestry is not yet proven, of course. At this point the best reason to notice it is that sustained evolutionary progress and the origin of life on Earth are not satisfactorily accounted for by neo-Darwinism. We will mention some of the flaws in that theory, but our primary purpose is to present Cosmic Ancestry as a viable, new scientific account of evolutionary progress and the origin of life on Earth.

  • fodeja
    fodeja
    Does the scientific evidence favor creation or evolution?

    As the cited evidence for "creation" basically boils down to "we can't explain" it, I think this question is misleading, and possibly undecidable. Does creation start where our mental capabilities end?

    Plus, the very essence of the creation hypothesis is the existence of a creator: we cannot decide whether something is created or not unless we have a model of the alleged creator's capabilities and ways of working. You can't discuss creationism without God.

    Note that I'm not saying that scientific theories are sacred and must not be attacked, but there are useful and less useful ways of doing that.

    f.

  • fodeja
    fodeja

    ThiChi,

    did _you_ write that, or was that yet another copy-paste job? Cite your sources, at least.

    f.

  • ThiChi
    ThiChi

    Why retype it? Have you ever used cut & Paste?(Hypocrite?) Do what I did- get off your ass and go to Yahoo and type in "panspermia" and you will find the info, I posted. Just trying to help, don't know anything about panspermia.

    ""As the cited evidence for "creation" basically boils down to "we can't explain" it, I think this question is misleading, and possibly undecidable. Does creation start where our mental capabilities end?""

    LOL!!

    Let’s just agree to stick to the scientific evidence on both sides of the issue. The issue has religious implications for everyone—even those who claim to hold no religious views. But the issue can be addressed from a purely scientific standpoint.

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