Snow in Bethlehem

by Atreyu 11 Replies latest social relationships

  • Atreyu
    Atreyu

    For many years I thought that one WTS argument against Jesus being born in December was valid:

    "The sheep were out in the fields of Bethlem when Jesus was born. There are sometimes snow in this area in December, so the event couldn't have taken place in that season."

    Please remark the word "sometimes". And think about it.

    I happen to live in coastal Norway. You may also find snow here during the winter. Sometimes. But most of the winter there's little or no snow at all. Except for a few snowy days, the sheep are outside in the fields. (Why shouldn't they?)

    If I reported that my son was born around Xmas, and that the sheep were outside our house at that very day, would you argue that I was wrong? That I had mistaken the date?

    My point is: Because there is snow SOMETIMES in Bethlem in December doesn't mean that there is ALWAYS snow and the sheep NOT AT ALL could have been out in the fields. Got it?

  • LDH
    LDH

    Good points, and welcome.

    HOWEVER, twice I have been to Isreal and even took the time to ask the Israeli shephards in the Golani Heights and other areas about this very thing.

    They take their flocks out to graze and around about October they bring them in from the fields.

    More than the snow, it's the cold temperatures that drive the shepards to bring their flocks home to their pens.

    So while there WOULD be sheep outside year round (it's not like they build them big sheep houses, LOL, the sheep wouldn't be *in the fields.*

    So sorry to say, the WBTS had this one right.

    Lisa

  • ros
    ros

    Bible scholars also point to the fact of Jesus' cousin, John the Baptist, being born six month prior to Jesus. Because John's father, Zechariah, was a temple priest, and temple priests had a programmed schedule for serving in the temple, through Jewish timelines they claim to be able to fix the approximate time of John's birth. Thereby, six months later, Jesus' birth, which they also figure to be in the fall-October time.

    Sorry I don't have the specifics off the top of my head, but you get the general idea.

    Ros
    "A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7

  • Atreyu
    Atreyu

    Dear Lisa,

    I'm glad for your remarks.

    Consider this: The way shepherds in the Judean Hills handle their sheep may have changed during 2000 years. I believe the owners wasn't very wealthy at that time and could only build barns etc. sparsely. Also, the stock or breed of sheep has probably changed a lot over the years. The sheep-breeds nowadays are normally adapted to a highly productive ranching. So, there is reason to believe that sheep in older times were more naturally adapted to the local climate.

    In Norway, some ranchers recently re-discovered and old breed of sheep that can stay outdoor, in the fields and mountains, all year around, without being herded. And, as I said, the regular sheep are outdoor - in the still green fields close to the ranch - all the year, except for a few days.

    My point is not to speculate about breeding and ranching in ancient times, but this: We can not categorically say that there wasn't any sheep out in the fields of Bethlehem in December 2000 years ago.

  • Adonai438
    Adonai438

    I always found their 'snow' argument an awfully half hearted attempt to prove Christmas wrong. Even if they were right about the snow it's not the date that matters it's the meaning of the celebration-- which, incidentally, is not pagan in origin .
    I have also read that there are some sheep that are raised out during the winter time (year round really) for the purposes of temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices were year round and so were their flocks of animals for such. So snow is not a fool-proof problem for Christmas argument. I have posted recently an article on the origen of the December 25th date if you want to look at it:
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=20696&site=3

    <>< Angie

  • LDH
    LDH

    Atreyu,

    Your remarks are good ones.

    I hate to tell you, though, the shephards I spoke to are just as poor now as they were then. They still live in mountain caves. VERY POOR.

    They take their sheep to the grazing pastures for certain times of the year, and bring them home for the winter season.

    If you know anything about the Jewish culture it's that they keep their traditions. In 5,000 years there will still be some die-hard shephards doing it the same way.

    Lisa

  • Atreyu
    Atreyu

    Lisa,

    I'm not an expert in the history of shepherding. I've only made observations. So, I rest my case.

    Ros,

    Your reference to Zechariah was interesting. Zechariach belonged to the Abijah section of the priesthood, and according to 1 Cr 24 there were 24 such sections. Accordig to 2 Ch 23:8 each were serving 1 week in turn. Is it possible to figure out at what time of the year the Abijah section performed their service?

  • ros
    ros

    I think you're on the right track. :-)

    Ros
    "A religion that teaches lies cannot be true"--The Watchtower, 12/1/91 pg. 7

  • mrs rocky2
    mrs rocky2

    Please look at the inside back pages of the large print New Translation Bible. There is a chart explaining Jewish months and corresponding months we currently use. You will notice that late December vegetation is beginning to grow, wildflowers, etc. So the argument the WT uses is bogus - their own publication does not back up the 'snow in the fields' statement!

    Mrs R

  • anewperson
    anewperson

    CHRISTMAS -- THE REAL TRUTH: More recent scholarly studies prove that the Christmas Tree is from the Tree of Eternal Life (Ge 2:9, 3:22) depicted in church plays of the Middle Ages, not Luther or Druid tree-worshippers, although outdated articles for example in World Book Encyclopedia still repeat the legends and Luther may have originated the use of candles attached to Christmas trees.

    The giant cedars of Lebanon used to build the temple at Jerusalem themselves had bright green needles with tan-colored cones, and John 10:22-3 says Christ visited the successor temple during the Jewish "Festival of Dedication," namely Channukah, during winter. Also called the Festival of Lights, it had singing, the carrying of tree branches, homes filled with lights and joy. Celebrated 8 days each time, its date varies yearly but the first Channukah was December 25, making it an even more likely source for the December 25 celebration than Rome's Saturnalia which came later in the month. Some believe Christ was actually born about Oct 1, which would mean Mary conceived 9 months previously, that is about or on December 25. Indeed count 9 months backwards from October to see for yourself. As to Santa Claus, no, he did not come from a vaguely known Asian god who descended chimneys to bring gifts or Siberian wizards but instead the Christian Nicholaus in Turkey in the Middle Ages who had white hair, red robes and each Dec 6 night anonymously shoved gift pouches with gold through windows of homes with poor daughters so that they would not be sold into slavery and prostitution because too poor to pay a marriage dowery.

    In fact Christ himself was wrongly attacked as a "glutton and drunkard" simply for believing in a good time (Mt 11:19). He once turned water to wine at a wedding party in Cana (Jn 2:1-11), told followers to invite needy persons to parties (Lu 14:13-14), and accepted gifts including expensive nard oil. As with Nicholas later, Revelation 1:14 even describes the resurrected Christ's hair as like "white wool" or "snow," his cloak red or scarlet-colored (red with a bluish tinge--Mt 27:28), and white symbolizes purity. True, all that just coincidentally reminds one of Santa Claus, but do note that the earliest Christians enjoyed balanced merriment at "love feasts" (Jude 12), the angels celebrated Christ's birth (Lu 2), and Job's children had enjoyed birthdays (Job 1:3, 3:1, 3).

    Most Christmas trees are topped by a star remindful of the Christ star. According to John Mosley's The Christmas Star (1985) from September 3 BC to June 2 BC Jupiter, known as "the royal planet" passed Regulus "the king star" in the constellation Leo, reversed then passed again, turned and passed a 3rd time. By June 17 Jupiter and Regulus were so close they seemed a single star when seen by the eye. This then is one intriguing possible source for the Christ star in the Bible.

    Before Christ's birth unspecified men called "magi" in Biblical Greek came from the East first to Jerusalem (Mt 2:1-2) then went on to find the Christ child in Bethlehem. Some translations render the word magi as astrologers because its root like the word "magician" is linked to the idea of being a person of great might but although magi may refer to people who try to predict the future by observing the stars, using omens and consulting spirit beings as forbidden by God at Deuteronomy 18:10-12, it can also refer to people who worked to predict future weather patterns, good times to plant and harvest, buy and sell crops, etc via careful observation of the clouds, stars and other natural phenomena and with very little to absolutely no special focus on the occult at all. So for solid reasons some Bible translations continue to translate magi as simply "wise men" or "stargazers" and this is also supported by the Bible’s positively saying they brought gifts for Christ then also protected him by leaving without telling his location to King Herod who wickedly desired to slay him. The oldest traditions of oral and written nature have called the wise men "kings," and Mesopotamia (Chaldea/Babylonia) did have sub-kings ruling city-states, often with the best education then possible.

    Those who kept their families from celebrating Christmas should not be condemned if they acted out of lack of accurate knowledge in the past but also no one should claim that those who do celebrate the birth of Christ are out of harmony with the Bible even as the preceding information proves. Please read and meditate on what Paul writes at Colossians 2:16.... The writers are part of a nonprofit mostly house-and-computer-based fellowship called Jah Christians, part of the international Free Christians movement which directly emails the Free Christians Newsletter for free to nearly persons in all belief systems: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jahchristian, or contact [email protected] for a free subscription today.

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