Literacy and eternal salvation

by dgp 13 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  AGuest

  Not to veer too far off topic, dear dgp (peace to you!), but you've made a couple statements that are inaccurate and so I would like to set the matter straight, if you will indulge me - thank you! You stated:

  Christianity began (or so goes the claim) as a group of mostly illiterate and poor fishermen.

  Your statement "or so goes the claim" is accurate: the apostles were NOT illiterate, not all were fisherman... nor were they necessarily poor. Matthew was a tax collector, and tax collectors made a good living. This is also true of many of the disciples (Zaccheus, Jospeh of Arimethea and many others were rich)... and many of the early Body (which is why those who had gave to the DISTRIBUTION collection... even land... so that there would be an "equalling" with those who didn't - widows and orphans). Even some women (Lydia, et al.) were well off.

  Most people were illiterate at the time.

  This is, again, inaccurate. We KNOW the apostles weren't illiterate because (1) they all attended school (which was required for Jewish boys, so that even Christ attended), which is how (2) some could write letters to the others; but, finally (3) reading "in the Law" was a requirement for ALL Jewish MEN. If there was illiteracy, then, it was primarily among the women; however, given their industriousness, many women not only were literate, but ran small businesses.

  So, the god of that religion, then, did not require that you be literate in order to be saved.

  No, not to be saved, but was absolutely required in order to know when "Messiah" arrived. Because the Writings... "bore witness about [HIM]." Thus, Christ admonished them FOR "searching the scriptures"... rather than coming to HIM (the One they bore witness TO).

  Once the Bible came out, it turned out that God needed a literate channel to convey its message.

  This, again, is an inaccuracy. The first "Bible" (the Septuagint) was written long before Christ even came in the flesh. It the first one for which my Lord uttered the words, "Woe to you... scribes!" Why? Because their "false stylus" had added to, removed from, and tampered with the OT Writings.

  What's even as important, however, is NOT that a literate channel was now needed, but man's efforts to STIFLE that literacy!! It was because they DIDN'T want people reading the Writings, Bible, letters, and other testimonies... that it was eventually decreed a crime TO read! Or, at least, to read the "Bible." People were literally burned at the stake for reading it. Why? Because those who purported to suppress what was IN it... or were attempting to further CHANGE it... knew that if it WAS read, they would be exposed for the hypocrites and imposters THEY were.

  Which is one of the reasons the WTBTS hinders education: they don't WANT you to read your Bible and SEE... where they are LYING... about what it says, what's in it, what it prophecies about, etc. As did (and does) the RCC. Both of these (and perhaps some others) want you to believe that THEY know better than you what's "in the Bible." So, they make it this infallible, unerring digest... that only THEY can understand. As for the WTBTS, if they can keep you uneducated, then they can keep you from seeing... at least per the Bible... who they REALLY are... and are not.

  So, Christianity today needs literacy,

  No. Since Christ, "christianity" only needs holy spirit. Because THAT is what Christ uses to lead us... into ALL truth. Because the writings in the Bible have been tampered with and so cannot be COMPLETELY relied upon.

  but the Watchtower requires a lot more than that. They need a printing company.

  Not quite, dear one. The WTBTS does NOT require literacy - indeed, they restrict and discourage it. They need a printing company, yes, but that in order to make a profit at one time (they are, after all, a business). What they did, however, is in fulfillment of two verses in the Bible:

  First, they fulfill Revelation 12:15, in that THEY are the means by which the "dragon", our Adversary, "disgourge[s] water... like a river... from ITS mouth"... today... in an effort to try and cause the "Woman" to be "drowned". If he can drown HER... he can drown her seed. Since he is the "father of the lie"... ALL that comes from his "mouth" are lies. And this organization has got to be one of THE greatest source of lies ever known to the Body of Christ.

  Second, such disgourging is in fulfillment of Ecclesiastes 12:12, which states:

  "As regards anything besides these, my son, TAKE A WARNING: To the making of MANY books there is NO end, and MUCH DEVOTION TO THEM IS WEARISOME TO THE FLESH."

  The early Body of Christ was NOT illiterate, dear one... as many, including and primarily, the WTBTS wishes you to believe. To the contrary, they were at least elementarily educated, if not highly educated (Paul studied under Gamaliel). Which is why they WROTE to one another in letters. This teaching as to their illiteracy is just a tack false christs and false prophets use to get ones to believe that illiteracy was common and acceptable THEN... so as to make those who follow THEM believe it is now. So that the latter won't even DEIGN to read, let alone try to understand WHAT they're reading. Rather, they defer both to those who claim to "know"... and raise themselves up over them.

  I went to law school. Why? Because my Lord, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH (MischaJah) directed me to. Why? Because he said that at some point I was going to need that education. At some point, I am going to have to speak to those who know the law... and the only way I would be effective is to know it myself. So, I went. And he was right. I associate with, work with, and speak to folks of ALL educational levels. Many are Jewish... and many are lawyers. I could not understand ANY of them, though, if it weren't for my education.

  Christ does not keep people down education/literacy-wise, dear one, because he has not fear of losing HIS sheep... because their education, class, economic status, etc., has not bearing on whether they follow him and/or remain in union with him. It is their FAITH... which runs the gamut of education, class, and economic status. Sure, it's easier for some and harder for others... due to the distractions of life... but illiteracy can be as distracting, if not more in some cases, that higher education. Because sometimes it leads to drug and alcohol abuse... if not crime. On the other had, higher education can help one understand the things written by MEN... which deviate from the things of God... so that they may even know WHAT to ask of the Holy Spirit so as to gain understanding.

  Don't let their propaganda fool you - no, we don't need school, higher education, or even literacy to know God. For that, we only need Christ; however, THAT one never issued a "law" against any of these.

  I hope this helps and, again, I bid you peace!

  A literate (before the WTBTS) and educated (since the WTBTS) slave of Christ,

  SA, who says, if someone can convince you that you are too stupid to know/understand... they've pretty much won. Because if you believe it, you have pretty much just GIVEN them the victory.
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  dgp

  Not angry at all, AGuest. This is a difficult thing to express correctly. I'm not sure what way I should take; whether to respond to some of your points, of whether to try to make my own, original point, so that we will not be distracted in discussions that will obscure the point. I think I will just try to say what I wanted to say.

  As you know, the Watchtower makes it a point not only that you read the Bible, but, above all, that you read their materials, underline them, et cetera. The Watchtower also wants you to learn its message, so you can be spared at Armageddon (oh, if it only were to come someday, and we'd be free of the Governing Body). But then, being able to read and write is a requirement for that. How can we suppose that God intended it to be that way, if he chose disciples that were illiterate (all right, not all of them) and the apostles preached to people who were mostly illiterate (your saying that the Jewish men were required to read leaves out the fact that Jews have never been more than a small portion of mankind, promises to Jacob notwithstanding; and then even you recognize that it was the MEN knew how to read).

  How can the illiterate receive the good message, then? If you think that the message can be conveyed, say, by the spoken word, then I will ask why the hell we need the magazines. If you say we don't need the magazines, then why do we have to read them?

  Someone could argue that the magazines are only the way to convey words to whoever can't hear them. But the fact is that religion has become something like the Code of Federal Regulations. You need to be literate or else you don't know how to obey the Lord (not that I want to do that, anyways, but I hope my point is made).

  I think it is safe to assume that, if the Lord gave you religion, he also made sure your salvation couldn't depend on knowing how to read and write.

  I think the question of whether most people are literate, even in the Third World, is not relevant to the point I'm trying to make here. If he wants you to be saved, why would literacy be a requirement?

  Let´s play Devil's advocate for a while and take the side of the Governing Body. How can you bring the good news to a Guatemalan indian who doesn't know how to read and write? How is he going to "study" the "What does the Bible really teach", first, and then keep up with the new lights that are published in the official daily, I mean, the magazines?
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  Band on the Run

  Most people were illiterate. If functional illiteracy is included in illiteracy, the US would have a whopping figure, despite compulsory public school education.

  It is an excellent point. Has anyone worked a mission to a third world country where most people are illiterate? I wonder if different methods are used by the Society. The written word commands uniformity that an oral tradition does not. The Witnesses used to boast about teaching people to read and write. I don't know the truth of the matter.

  Also, from antrhopology and discussions of Jesus' sayings, I think an illiterate society might be full of bright people with a strong oral tradition. When I helped an illiterate prostitute, she could remember things that I had to write down to remember. Certain skills are honed. They might have skills that we have neglected. An older priest told me that in New England a farmer could pick up his dirt and examine it and know the weather. Relying on the weather service, no one has that skill today. Indeed, I used to know all my family and friend's phone numbers and addresses. With the phone memory, I can barely remember mine.

  The way Jesus taught with parables seems aimed for illiteracy. You might not remember text but his stories were compelling and memorable.

  I recall a film with Robert DeNiro and Jeremy Irons called the Mission, set in Central or South America, when first contact and preaching started with Native Americans. The film was simply wonderful. I know that the mission priests did not preach the same way they would back in Europe. Gilead missionaries must have been trained in such a manner. I don't know.

  The basics of WT could be taught without text. People would probably incorporate these basics into their own culture. I've seen vodoo, Santierra, etc. practiced in NY Catholic and Anglican churches without anyone much noticing it. I suspect they are taught reading and writing quickly. My grandfather was illiterate. He had to work in the mills in NJ when he emigrated here. My gf only learned to read and write as part of his prep for JW baptism.
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  AGuest

  As you know, the Watchtower makes it a point not only that you read the Bible, but, above all, that you read their materials, underline them, et cetera.

  I disagree, dear dgp (again, peace to you!). Yes, they certainly want you to read THEIR literature, but NOT the Bible. There, they only want you to refer to the less than 30 or so verses they used to refer to practically every teaching they have. If you go BEYOND those, however, or if you read the Bible outside the "light" of the WTBTS publications... you are considered to be "going beyond the things written" and reprimanded accordingly.

  Reading THEIR publications, however, does not require one to be literate; to the contrary, they would much prefer their readers to be the uneducated, semi-literate individuals most of them are. That is shown by the fact that they GIVE the answer(s) THEY want to the questions in their publications. Sure, you have to know your ABCs enough to be able to read the question and then orally gurgitate the "answer" they give you... but literacy is much more than just being able to read words - comprehension is also a major part. Going on many of the answers I heard over the years... both merely parroting the answer as well as those some often attempted on their own (in their own words)... I would say that TRUE literacy... including COMPREHENSION... is not only sadly missing... but ILLITERACY is strongly encouraged. Either directly... or by subversion through the publications' propaganda.

  The Watchtower also wants you to learn its message, so you can be spared at Armageddon (oh, if it only were to come someday, and we'd be free of the Governing Body).

  Yes, but no matter how you SAY it... it's still the ONE message. You can call it powder, periwinkle, sky, ocean, royal, and whatever, but underneath it all... it's still "blue." In the same way, although it may say it 10 different ways, using different words each time... the message is the same.

  But then, being able to read and write is a requirement for that.

  Read what, "See Jane go (to meetings, out in field service, to Bethel)"? "See the end of the world come in 1874... uh, wait, no, 1914, no... hold on, 1918... oh, uh, oops, wait a minute, 1975..."? The average education of an adult JW is "high school." Yet, I would wager that there are many non-JW high school students who, as a result of not having been either indoctrinated or brainwashed, would say that the WTBTS melarkey is... melarkey.

  How can we suppose that God intended it to be that way, if he chose disciples that were illiterate (all right, not all of them)

  The ASSUMPTION that they were illiterate is just that: an assumption. And an erroneous one.

  and the apostles preached to people who were mostly illiterate

  Another assumption...

  (your saying that the Jewish men were required to read

  Yes. And from a very early age. 2 Timothy 3:15

  leaves out the fact that Jews have never been more than a small portion of mankind,

  First, the scriptures (OT) weren't written to anyone other than Israel (Jews and Samaritans), dear one. And in the LAW these were told to read it as well as write it. Deuteronomy 6:4-9; 11:18-21; Psalm 1:2

  promises to Jacob notwithstanding; and then even you recognize that it was the MEN knew how to read).

  Yes... but Deborah was a judge. Do you think a judge would not know how to read the Law? And John addressed his "second" letter to a woman. Yes? Lydia sold fabric. Surely, she knew how to read. Yes, women did not learn as men did (in the temple school), but why assume their fathers, husbands, brothers didn't teach them? Not all of them, certainly... but some.

  How can the illiterate receive the good message, then?

  Once Christ came, through HIM. After him, through those to whom he gave holy spirit. However, MANY wrote accounts of the gospels, not just Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Lazarus (who wrote the gospel attributed to "John"), SEVERAL letters were [written by] Paul, James, Peter, Jude, and John wrote to various ones, including WOMEN... and even John was told to WRITE the Revelation. Luke 1:1; 1 John 2:26, 27; 2 John 1; Revelation 1:19; 2:1, 8, 12, 18; 3:1, 7, 14

  So, we KNOW John wasn't illiterate, we know Matthew wasn't, we know Judas Iscariot wasn't (because he attended school WITH Christ)... we know Paul wasn't... and we know Luke (a physician) wasn't. We also know that Luke didn't write to an illiterate man, but to someone of authority ("Theophilus"). The Ethiopian Eunuch wasn't illiterate. Nor was Christ (who read from Isaiah) illiterate. Yes, many WERE illiterate, but not most. Many were rich, but not most.

  If you think that the message can be conveyed, say, by the spoken word, then I will ask why the hell we need the magazines.

  You DON'T need the magazines. That is something THEY'VE convinced you that you need... because, well, what else can they sell? They can't make money on the spoken word... unless they charge admission.

  If you say we don't need the magazines, then why do we have to read them?

  You don't HAVE to read them, but if you DO... it's to know what THEY teach, not what God taught/teaches. You have Christ... holy spirit... and the NEW Law... for that.

  Someone could argue that the magazines are only the way to convey words to whoever can't hear them.

  Which would be untrue, of course...

  But the fact is that religion has become something like the Code of Federal Regulations. You need to be literate or else you don't know how to obey the Lord (not that I want to do that, anyways, but I hope my point is made).

  But that is NOT true... unless you are talking strictly about the WTBTS. Because GOD's [New] Law... is not written on paper with ink... or even on stone. It is written on HEARTS. Proverbs 3:3, 7:3; Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 10:16

  I think it is safe to assume that, if the Lord gave you religion, he also made sure your salvation couldn't depend on knowing how to read and write.

  The Lord did not give us religion; the MOST Holy One of Israel established only one religion... worship through the priesthood, first in the tabernacle, then in the temple(s) at Jerusalem. He condemned that system of worship, however, when He removed His spirit and put it in His Son, the 'cornerstone' of the NEW Jerusalem, the temple of God made up of people (in whom His SON placed that spirit). From that time on, there has been NO religion given to God's people. From that time, God can only be worshipped in SPIRIT... through the Truth (Christ).

  I think the question of whether most people are literate, even in the Third World, is not relevant to the point I'm trying to make here. If he wants you to be saved, why would literacy be a requirement?

  You are absolutely right: literacy is NOT required. But I did state at the start of my post that it was a deviation from the topic for a bit. Because your statements about folks being illiterate back then... and literacy now being a requirement... are both errors. They were NOT illiterate... and the WTBTS does NOT require literacy but, to the contrary, really wish you to be/remain ILLITERATE. Hence, their discouragement of higher education. You make these statements because you assume literacy to be limited to knowing how to read. However, although one can read... letters and words... one does not necessarily comprehend what one is reading. In which case, what was the point, truly, in reading in the first place?

  Let´s play Devil's advocate for a while and take the side of the Governing Body. How can you bring the good news to a Guatemalan indian who doesn't know how to read and write?

  I'm sure they have ways, as I am sure (in fact I know) that not all who hear the WTBTS message can read.

  How is he going to "study" the "What does the Bible really teach", first, and then keep up with the new lights that are published in the official daily, I mean, the magazines?

  Yes, I understand what you're saying: they need an elementary understanding of words and phrases. But, again, that is NOT "literacy," dear one. They don't WANT you be literate because they KNOW... that if you do become so, you will most probably (1) ask questions that they can't answer, and/or (2) leave.

  I hope this helps clarify where I was trying to come from... and, again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

  SA