Spoke with a dub on ever changing doctrine...

by stocwach 13 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  stocwach

  I asked him how could it be the true religion with all the numerous doctrinal changes. This is how he replied to me in an email:

  " Another thing mentioned was the apostles (Known as the governing body)
  arguing whether or not circumcision is necessary since the gentiles up to
  this time were not accepted into the christian congregation. It wasn't until
  the majority of the jews rejected Christ that the Gentiles were FINALLY
  allowed to join. (rejecting the Gentiles was also a problem in the
  congregation since the Christian jews thought that they were superior to the
  Gentiles ) Christs apostles were all jewish. However, when the gentiles were
  allowed to become Christians, there was confusion (Confusion among the 11
  apostles, Paul and the elders in Christs time) as to whether the non Jews
  needed to be circumcised like the Jewish Christians already were. Some
  APOSTLES believed that they should be, whereas other APOSTLES thought they
  should not. You need to read verses 19-20, 21, 24-30 to get an idea of their
  determination on what was really important and whether circumcision needed
  to be enforced. Remember, these were the Apostles that followed Christ and
  they were divided on this issue in this Chapter in Acts 15.

  To me, if anything was to stumble me out of the christian religion is how
  these apostles that knew Christ and spoke and walked with him would not know
  the answer to something as simple as this. Also another thing that is
  confusing is that for 4000 years, non jews had no opportunity to be god's
  covenant people since God made this covenant exclusive to the jewish nation.
  Why would this exclusive oppotunity change later? As in bible times and when
  certain understandings today come to light, certainly things do change
  (Can't eat shell fish, pigs, jewish nation exclusive nation God dealt with,
  no mention of Heaven in the old testament, animal sacrifices etc etc,,,,,)
  yet all these things changed when Jesus came. Certainly one could reason
  since these apostles changed their mind that everyone needed to be
  circumcised and the whole circumcision issue that they couldn't be the
  true religion could they? They did walk with Christ did they not yet still
  did not know the circumcision issue? If changing thinking on certain
  doctrinal issues is a turn off for you, then Christianity as a whole then
  should be a turn off since the early Apostles changed their thinking not
  only about the circumcision issue but also on whether the gentiles were
  worthy of being Christians also."

  I haven't had time to look at the verses and context, but I wanted to post this to get everyone's thoughts and possible rebuttals. I just found out that this guy has been a JW for 5 years (his wife was raised on JW), and he said he will be open to look at the controversial issues I had brought up to him (UN, blood issue, silentlambs, etc.) I'm pretty pumped up about that, but before I get into any of that stuff in detail with him, I'd like to have a nice response to his email.

  Thanks in advance everyone!
• 

  LDH

  bttt....

  This guy needs some help from our 'Ruling Class," LOL!

  My mind is so far away from that doctrine shit I couldn't write a coherent response if I had to.

  But I know some of you guys are GOOOD so let's go!

  Lisa
• 

  Justin

  You have included so much material in your question(s) that everything can't be answered at once. (Not even the JWs could keep up with you!) So try to be patient and ask one question at a time.

  The gist seems to be that they can produce some scriptural evidence that there can be doctrinal change. In this case, primarily the Jerusalem Council that decided the circumcision issue.

  Now to come to the point: The New Testament (Christian Greek Scriptures) were written at a time when new features of God's plan were opening up. The Messiah had come for the first time, and there was a work to be performed in spreading God's message to the whole world (no longer to just the one nation of Israel). But when Jesus was here in the flesh, he confined his work to the Jews. His apostles were all Jewish. After his resurrection, they were expecting him to return specifically to establish a kingdom over Israel. (Acts 1:6) It wasn't until they received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost that they began to get a clearer picture.

  As Gentiles began coming into the Christian congregation the issue of circumcision arose. If these Gentiles were compelled to be circumcised, it would mean that they, in effect, would need to become Jews before becoming Christians. So at the Jerusalem council the apostles composed a letter, and sent it to the congregations, saying: "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things," and the necessary things did not include circumcision. (Acts 15:28) The apostles could make decisions under the inspiration of that same Spirit which was given them at Pentecost. Then the matter was settled. They did not later reverse their decision and impose circumcision on the Gentiles.

  What about the Governing Body of JWs today? They have never claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit as the Bible writers were. All they do is supposedly study the Bible and make their decisions, and yet they want these decisions to be binding on everyone in the organization. They make certain decisions, then years later change their minds and return to their previous understanding. Yet the people who are affected by these decisions have suffered hardships because of them. They may tell married couples what they can do in bed, perhaps resulting in the breakup of marriages, then later change their minds. For years they wanted young men who were subject to a military draft to refuse to even perform alternative serve, so the men had to go to prison. Now it's supposed to be OK to do alternative service. Certain operations were forbidden, so people had to die or be permanently impaired. Now those operations are OK. If they ever change their minds on blood transfusions, look at all the lives that will have needlessly been lost. The apostles, on the other hand, made it easier for male Gentiles (allowing them to avoid a painful operation) - not harder.

  The Governing Body cannot compare the changes they make today with the changes that were made in the first century. The changes of the first century were necessary for the establishment of Christianity as a universal religion. But the changes that are made by the WT today either result in the abuse of Jehovah's Witnesses, or else are used to deceive them into thinking they are in a progressive organization (like when they change a few words - such as going from "new world" to "new order" and back to "new world" again - those are cosmetic changes that have no relevance at all).

  You should pay attention to the kinds of changes they make by reading books on Witness history and looking at the reports that people make on this website. The WT's changes are not God's changes or the Bible's changes.

  Justin
• 

  jesussaves

  Tell your dub friend to read Genesis 18:18 'Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him.' Acts 3:25 'Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, and in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.'

  These scriptures show that the promise of Abraham was to produce a seed to bless the entire earth, not just the Jews. God's plans do not change based on the sentiments of people (Jews rejecting Jesus).

  Tell him that when God interprets visions and dreams in the bible, the interpretation is final, they don't change. What do you think the Pharoah would have done to Joseph, if he came back and said, 'That dream I told you about with the 7 fat cows and 7 emaciated cows doesn't have anything to do with abundance and famine. I've got some new light. Today, God told me that the dream was about a big barbecue contest, and that your seven fat cows are going to win.' I'm not being silly, but that's exactly how ridiculous some of the JW interpretations of prophecy are.
• 

  jesussaves

  Also tell your friend to examine the verses that he gave you. Acts 15:23-24

  'This is the letter they took along with them: This letter is from the apostles and elders, your brothers in Jerusalem. It is written to the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria, and Silicia.

  Greetings! We understand that some men from here have troubled you and upset you with their teaching, but they had no such instructions from us. So it seemed good to us, having unanimously agreed on our decision, to send you these official representatives, along with our beloved Barnabas and Paul.

  Who have risked their lives for the sake of our lord Jesus Christ. So we are sending Judas and Silas to tell you what we have decided concerning your question. For it seemed good to the holy spirit and to us to lay no greater burden on you than these requirements......'(New Living Translation)

  Notice the portion in bold. The apostles were not the ones divided on the circumcision issue. They just clarified things for the congregation because of a teaching that someone tried to bring into the congregation.

  Also, I don't know if I was clear in my previous post, but I said all that to say that the Gentiles were ALWAYS a part of the Abrahamic covenant. It was not a change based on the Jews lack of reception of Jesus. Okay, that's it I'm done.
• 

  stocwach

  Thank you all for your posts!
• 

  JT

  What about the Governing Body of JWs today? They have never claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit as the Bible writers were. All they do is supposedly study the Bible and make their decisions, and yet they want these decisions to be binding on everyone in the organization. They make certain decisions, then years later change their minds and return to their previous understanding. Yet the people who are affected by these decisions have suffered hardships because of them. They may tell married couples what they can do in bed, perhaps resulting in the breakup of marriages, then later change their minds. For years they wanted young men who were subject to a military draft to refuse to even perform alternative serve, so the men had to go to prison. Now it's supposed to be OK to do alternative service. Certain operations were forbidden, so people had to die or be permanently impaired. Now those operations are OK. If they ever change their minds on blood transfusions, look at all the lives that will have needlessly been lost. The apostles, on the other hand, made it easier for male Gentiles (allowing them to avoid a painful operation) - not harder.

  The Governing Body cannot compare the changes they make today with the changes that were made in the first century. The changes of the first century were necessary for the establishment of Christianity as a universal religion. But the changes that are made by the WT today either result in the abuse of Jehovah's Witnesses, or else are used to deceive them into thinking they are in a progressive organization (like when they change a few words - such as going from "new world" to "new order" and back to "new world" again - those are cosmetic changes that have no relevance at all).

  You should pay attention to the kinds of changes they make by reading books on Witness history and looking at the reports that people make on this website. The WT's changes are not God's changes or the Bible's changes
  *************
  this poster's comments show clearly that he or she fully understand the issues that are raised when one stands before the world and annoucnes THEY ARE THE ONLY CHANNEL
  with such a large pair of shoes it REQUIRES THAT ONE FILL THEM

  as many of us have realized the wt perhaps would have been fine if they had merely stuck to :

  "supposedly study the Bible and make their decisions"

  yes much like bible commentary and they would have been fine, but instead they moved from student of the word to god's mouthpc and the result is :

  "they want these decisions to be binding on everyone in the organization"

  yes regardless of whether it is right or wrong- to not claim Inspiration and then demand the same respect and level of obedience is the problem with wt

  they have gone so far beyond what is written it AIN'T EVEN FUNNY

  while they would dog any other faith that made up rules that would be classified as BREAKING THE DIVINE LAW

  they do the very same thing

  the 2 best examples i think are

  1. alternative service

  2. transplant

  WHEN They were presented to the jw community in fact the entire WORLD they were presented as being based and supported by the bible and god-

  therefore to violate them would result in dfing and being cast out of god's visible org

  yet SUPPOSING they were god's org - were they authorized to keep someone out based on a dogma that god or the bible didn't support

  in fact it brings to mind the dudes in paul's day who were KICKING FOLKS OUT FOR THE SAME REASON -- folks didn't support or agree with thier made up teachings,policies,dogmas- whatever you want to call it.

  the wt does the same thing

  how sad

  James .
• 

  NeonMadman

  Another thing mentioned was the apostles (Known as the governing body)
  arguing whether or not circumcision is necessary since the gentiles up to
  this time were not accepted into the christian congregation.

  Known to whom as the governing body? Certainly not to each other or to the Christians of that day. The term never appears in the Bible (you know, like the word, "Trinity". So it can't be true, right?) The Watchtower loves to use the meeting of the apostles and older men at Jerusalem described in Acts 15 as a biblical example of the governing body in action. In fact, it was no such thing. The apostles and older me were all out in the field, doing the Lord's work as He directed them. A controversy arose within the congregations about circumcision, and, in order to resolve the controversy, leaders from many areas stopped what they were doing and gathered in Jerusalem in order to resolve an issue that had begun to threaten the peace of the congregations. After the meeting, they all again went their way and resumed the work they had been doing.

  The Bible does not say that these men were any sort of "governing body," meeting on a regular basis to determine policy for all congregations, and dictating in minute detail every aspect of Christian life and practice. It does not say, as the Watchtower contends, that the apostles and older men were "headquartered" at Jerusalem, and directed the congregations from there. All of this is Watchtower fiction which is added to the Bible to justify their organizational arrangement. Undoubtedly some elders did live in Jerusalem, since there were Christian churches there which would need leadership. But the idea that elders serving at Jerusalem were somehow given more authority than elders in other places, or that they had authority over all Christians everywhere, is not found in the Bible. Again, the Watchtower has framed their accounts of Biblical events to lend support to their own teachings and power structure.

  In fact, the gathering at Acts 15 sounds much more to me like one of the many church Councils that have been held by the churches of Christendom over the centuries than it does like the Watchtower's governing body.

  If changing thinking on certain
  doctrinal issues is a turn off for you, then Christianity as a whole then
  should be a turn off since the early Apostles changed their thinking not
  only about the circumcision issue but also on whether the gentiles were
  worthy of being Christians also."

  But the apostles did not change their thinking back and forth like blinking light on these issues, as the Watchtower does on many teachings. Peter was informed through direct inspiration from God that Gentiles were to be recieved into the congregation. He didn't "change his mind" on that issue, God revealed something new to him. Unlike the Watchtower's "new light," it didn't need to be revised at some later time; Gentiles are still, almost 2000 years later, allowed to become Christians.

  Now, because Gentiles were allowed to become Christians, the question of circumcision arose, and in this area, really, is where Christianity established itself as a separate religion, and not just a sect of Judaism. The question of whether Gentiles needed to be circumcised had never arisen before, because they had not been accepted into the congregation. Now that they were, some of the Jewish Christians thought that circumcision was necessary, because it had been necessary to be part of the Jewish congregation. Others disagreed. The council of Acts 15 met to settle a completely new issue that had arisen, they settled it, and it remained settled thereafter. Christians who harbored differing ideas met in unity and worked out their differences. They did not "change their minds" as a group, though some may have done so as individuals.

  How different is the Watchtower's record! Look at the shifting light on issues like the "superior authorities," the resurrection of the Sodomites, organ transplants, vaccinations, whether all Christians are ministers, etc. etc. They have shifted back and forth and back again on these issues according to which way the wind was blowing at Bethel that day, and advancing every change as "new light" from God. They prophecy in God's name, and after the prophecies fail, they again receive "new light" to explain away their failure. It is shameful that Jehovah's Witnesses would attempt to justify their misrepresentation of God by comparing it with the way matters were handled by the early Christians; there is no comparison at all.

  Tom
  "The truth was obscure, too profound and too pure; to live it you had to explode." ---Bob Dylan
• 

  pralis

  Hi NeonMadman.

  You mentioned something in your post that I wanted to respond to. It was this:

  "Also another thing that is confusing is that for 4000 years, non jews had no opportunity to be god's covenant people since God made this covenant exclusive to the jewish nation."

  This isn't entirely correct. Non-Jews certainly had opportunity to become His covenant people. Read Exodus 12:48, 49; Leviticus 19:33. Those foreigners and alien residents who wished to become FULL members of the congregation of Israel had to be circumcised and dedicate themselves to full obedience to the Law Covenant. One such example is Ruth, who married Boaz, the grandfather of King David. Why is this significant? Because Ruth was a Moabite. She also became a full-fledged adherent to the Law Covenant, as is seen in her statement to Naomi (a Jew) that "your people will be my people, and your God my God." (Ruth 1:16). She was a full convert. And interestingly the Law Covenant specifically stipulated against Moabites entering the assembly of Israel (see Deuteronomy 23:3, 4). Ruth's coversion would appear to be evidence that non-Israelites were indeed permitted to become full members of the nation, via the initiation requirements (of course, in her case, circumcision was obviously not possible). Ultimately, she would become an ancestor of Jesus of Nazareth.

  Pralis
• 

  jerome

  this is one of the most helpful posts that i have ever read.

  when i first read the jw responce it seemed as thuugh they would have a point.

  but as always the strawman gets plucked to pieces and their argument is left in tatters.

  this pattern is so common they always seem to have the right idea on first glance but on close examination they have nothing.

  i will memorize this material for future refernce.

  great post.

  the bible is a two edged sword
  wield it the wrong way and it you WILL cut yourself!