Have you ever successfully persuaded anyone? (page 2)

james_woods

I'm wondering, have you ever successfully persuaded someone to change their mind about something that they had been brainwashed with, and if so, how did you do it?

I successfully persuaded a friend at work to buy a Porsche 993 Targa like mine, when he was absolutely sure he wanted a New Beetle convertible. I closed the deal by reminding him that the New Beetle was a chick car and it would make him look gay.

Seriously - I don't buy into the idea that you can really persuade someone of something that is against their will.

You can present an argument, but they have to reason on it personally and persuade themselves.

Glander

It is generally true that arguing religion and politics is like trying to nail jello to the wall.

I think when people do shift their beliefs it is only after a process of internal contemplation and their own observations.

tec

You can present an argument, but they have to reason on it personally and persuade themselves.

I think when people do shift their beliefs it is only after a process of internal contemplation and their own observations.
Yes, and yes.

EntirelyPossible

Have I ever persuaded someone? Yes, I have had sex with a woman.

Have I ever persuaded someone on religion, politics or anything else? Dunno.

losthobbit

Hi Tammy

Thanks for your excellent question:

You have already placed all the religious into the category of irrational, and you, yourself, into the category of rational. What makes you know anything more or better than anyone else - religious or otherwise? Why should anyone listen to you?

Tammy, I used to be extremely religious. About thirteen years ago a man suggested to me that I read a free online book, called "Software for your brain". This is not an anti-religion book... it's an objective book which explains what open mindedness and closed mindedness is, and how to become more open minded.

I read the book. Some of it sank in, and some of it didn't. The most important thing I learned from the book was the concept of "Cognitive Dissonance". That is when you hear something new, or not inline with your beliefs, and your brain immediately rejects it. The book teaches you how to enable yourself to consider new information, instead of rejecting it.

Over the next few years I started questioning my religion, but instead of realizing that I was questioning flawed concepts I presumed that my understanding was flawed. Because of this I started making up a whole bunch of excuses for the problems in my religion.

It was only after about ten years that I decided to have a chat with a preacher. He pointed out that the excuses I had made up contradicted the bible. Althought it was not his intention, he helped me realize that I should not make excuses for the questions that I have. I had many questions at this point, about things in the bible that made no sense to me at all.

In an attempt to be open minded I wrote many emails to religious people, asking them about my questions. Some of these emails took many hours to write. I also read everything they sent me, and everything they suggested that I read, trying desperately to find answers to my questions.

I put ten of my top questions in a video on YouTube, and received hundreds of views and about a hundred responses. Not a single one of my questions was answered in a way that makes sense to me.

The only reason I have been able to come up with for having so many unanswered questions about contradictions and illogical problems in the bible is the simple fact that the bible contains many lies or mistakes.

People simply believe the bible, and do not see the mistakes, because they have been brainwashed to believe that the bible is somehow perfect and does not contain any.

Many religious people believe that the bible is entirely true, but they do not have any rational reason to believe this. They may even use arguments like "it says that it's true".

I could go on and on about this, but anyone with strong cognitive dissonance will reject everything that I say that contradicts with their beliefs, so it's pointless to write any more.

This is why I asked the question, "Have you ever successfully persuaded anyone?" What makes people listen to reason?

Black Sheep

The closest I have got is getting them to back off from pushing their doctrines in my face.

I have given them questions to answer and I don't let them start another subject until they answer my existing questions.

They know that I don't see them as having any moral high ground until they answer those questions.

I don't reason with them. I make them do the reasoning. My job is to keep them honest and I just do what it takes to make them confront their dishonesty.

Vanderhoven7

Hi Lost,

<<An example could simply be two rational people discussing evolution, or the age of the Earth, or the time light takes to travel to the stars. In such a conversation a young-Earth theorist could be made to feel very stupid.>>

What is rational (not necessarily what corresponds with reality) often depends on ones' presuppositions. I think young earth Creationists would simply argue that God created a fully functional universe...just as He created a fully formed and functional adult human being.

tec

Well, in that case LostHobbit, my only suggestion is that you ask people questions and get them to reason their own way to or through the answers.

In other words, get them to prove it to you.

Such as:

Many religious people believe that the bible is entirely true, but they do not have any rational reason to believe this. They may even use arguments like "it says that it's true".

I would ask thing such as:

Can you tell me where it says this?

(if the answer is that passage in Timothy, which it probably will be): What IS scripture? Was the whole bible written as it is today back when Paul said that? What makes the entire bible scripture? Why is there a warning about tampering with words in Revelation, if the book cannot be tampered with to begin with? What about Jeremiah 8:8? (lying pen of the scribes)

You don't have to try and win. That is not your job (and you more than likely have wrong views as well, as do we all). Present your views, ask your questions, and hope you can get someone to think... but then also respect their right as to what view they continue to hold, or discard. We, as people, are responsible for ourselves, and our own beliefs.

Peace to you,

Tammy

tec

For the record, faith, religion and the bible are three different things.

People can have faith without the other two. People have faith without believing that the bible is inerrant -as I do - because our faith is in Christ, and not just a book - one that contains scripture and witness accounts TO Christ, yes, but can also be mistranslated or tampered with and most of all, misunderstood.

Peace,

Tammy

tec

Oops, lol... just saw your pm :)

Have you ever successfully persuaded anyone?

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