Strong Anthropic Principal or. . .

by ninjaturtle 16 Replies latest jw friends

  • ninjaturtle
    ninjaturtle

    explain that away, Mr. Scientist!

    It has been widely noticed that various physical constants and parameters are just exactly those needed to permit life. Some of these include the strength of Gravity, the strength of the Strong Nuclear Force, the density of the universe, etc.

    [See, for instance, http://zebu.uoregon.edu/~js/21st_century_science/lectures/lec25.html]

    In fact, it is so unlikely that life could exist in a randomly chosen Universe that many (including myself) think that these parameters must have been chosen by a supernatural Creator.

    Here are some alternative hypotheses and my comments:

    1. We are just extremely lucky. Here you have to assume that the probability that a Creator exists to be zero.

    2. String Theory will show that these constants and parameters are not arbitrary, but have to be what they are. String Theory is just a particular bit of mathematics which may end up describing the Universe perfectly, but we still will have a question about why this particular bit is the one the Universe happens to obey.

    3. There are actually many universes with different "laws of physics". We necessarily are in one which supports life. This seems to be the strongest argument. However, all of these other Universes are in principle undetectable. It can never bedemonstrated that they exist. The mathematics which supports such a theory has to be accepted just as much on Faith as a Christian accepts the Bible.

  • ChuckD
    ChuckD

    Second only to mis-applying the second law of thermodynamics, this is probably the most sophomoric pro-creation argument that gets tossed around.

    Citing your painfully passive statement:

    It has been widely noticed that various physical constants and parameters are just exactly those needed to permit life. Some of these include the strength of Gravity, the strength of the Strong Nuclear Force, the density of the universe, etc.

    Widely noted? By whom? Who says that life depends on these?

    It is no different than the now-debunked argument that “Earth is at exactly the right position relative to the Sun to sustain life. Any closer or further away, and life could not exist.” Recent discoveries of life forms thriving in the hot undersea springs, in far hotter conditions than surface life could survive, show that life is vibrant and adaptable.

  • moman
    moman

    Yeah, I listen to S.Hawking also, black holes, quarks,anti-matter, its crazy stuff.
    But this life may just be a puzzle, inside a riddle, surrounded by an enigma,in a far-away baby universe?

  • JanH
    JanH

    The argument from the "Just Right" universe seems to catch on among some "design" creationists, and I find that puzzling. The faults of this argument is so apparent that I suspect that the emotional desires of these scholars who support them may have lead them to lower their intellectual guards to accept a story that, so to say, tickled their ears.

    The argument is usually called the "anthropic principle", and exists in several forms. This principle, hotly contested, states that the universe must be in such a state that it at least in some of its history can allow life to develop. It follows, some theoriets argued, from the seemingly remarkable coincidences in the makeup of the universe, withiut which life as we know it could not develop.

    Indeed, even if it was accepted as it stands, the anthropic principle can mean different things:

    1) Theists interpret it to mean that this is the only universe, and it was designed with the purpose of ultimately hosting the life we currently find on planet Earth.

    2) That the universe only exists because observers are here to see it. This is a common new age belief. It is a form of solipsism; new agers have misunderstood certain aspects of quantum mechanics they sometimes state to support this idea.

    3) That there is a multitude of universes, some of which allow life and others that do not. We happen to live in one that does. Many well-renowed modern cosmologists have come to speculate about this in all seriousness. It actually seems to follow from some of the equations describing quantum mechanics that every time a basic particle can go zing or zang, the universe actually splits in two, one for each possible state. Mind-boggling, indeed, but almost certainly impossible to ever disprove or prove.

    If we ditch version (2) above, we remain with one interpretation that seems to lend support to theism (1) and one which does not in any meaningful sense support the argument of theists (3).

    There are a number of more or less hidden premises in the anthropic argument from theism. One is that the different parameters are indeed random and are not in fact guided by a fundamental principle in the order of things. For example, Fred Hoyle's famous discovery of an excited state of carbon at 7.66 MeV sparked much interest in the 'anthropic principle' argument. It does not follow from the axioms of the theory. But is it really certain that it just as well could have been, say, 5.2 MeV, which would not allow Life As We Know It? Maybe. But maybe not. No cosmologist have actually demonstrated as fact that any value for all these "constants" would indeed be as likely as any other, or indeed that any universe could develop at all based on different values. The claim seems to be unfalsifiable, and that is a serious charge, because it pushes it outside the realm of science.

    Another premise, which is just as problematic, is that it deals merely with Life As We Know It. It asserts, without good evidence, that life cannot possibly exist in any (or many of) the many theoretical universes where the fine-tuning was different. What design creationists fear, with good reason, is to be dismissed because they mix up cause an effect.Of course life in this universe must exist in a form that is compatible with the physical laws we have. How could it not? We, life as we know it, is compatible with this universe precisely because this is where we originated. But who can guarantee that life forms we cannot even imagine could not possibly have existed in these alternative universes?

    These flaws in the argument from design are serious enough, but actually, they only scratch the surface of the massive problems this argument suffers from.

    One begins to suspect quite early that this "design" argument is merely a slighly modernized and repainted version of the old and famous "watchmaker analogy". I have earlier pointed out the serious flaws this argument suffers from, and it should not be a surprise that this modern version has retained some of the same weaknesses. The watchmaker argument has a built-in weakness of serious proportions, and this has always been the major problem with the design argument: if the fantastic properties of nature could only exist if it was created by a wise Designer, what then about the even more fantastic Designer himself? Would not the argument require a Super-Designer that was even more powerful, and so on, with an eternal regress of Designer-Designers? Indeed it would. So the only rational conclusion is that the one entity we know about, the universe, does not require a designer, even though it may appear (to some) to do so.

    The same is true about the 'anthropic principle' design argument. Theists have pointed out countless properties of this universe without which Life As We Know It could not exist. Fair enough. But what about the proposed Designer? Would not this designer need to have an even more impressive array of qualities, that 'coincidentally' corresponds to what a designer of our specific universe would need? Theists often claim talk about God's wisdom, ability to plan, immense power, timelessness, love, compassion, etc, etc, that are manifest, they say, in this universe. Obviously, we can imagine countless different universe-designers, many of which have all sorts of odd combination of different qualities, few of which would create the Universe we know. Thus, it follows that this Designer was himself designer by a Supreme Designer-Designer. And so on ad infinitum.

    The most serious flaw in the argument by design is actually mentioned in Hugh Ross' summary of counter-arguments on the page at http://www.reasons.org/resources/books/creatorandthecosmos/catc14.html Ross formulates it this way "We would not be here to observe the universe unless the extremely unlikely did take place." Indeed, this begs the question whether it was so unlikely after all, but let's leave this aside for now.

    It is a fundamental principle of science that a theory that describes a phenomenon must be falsifiable, that is, there must be (theoretical) observations that would disprove the theory if it is wrong. More generally, it is a principle that a theory that explains everything explains nothing. That means, that if there are no theoretical observations that cannot be accounted for by the theory, then it has no predictive power and is effectively useless.

    A theory that should try to prove that this universe is created by an intelligent Designer, must follow such rules. It must be possible to postulate a universe not created by a Designer, and then explain how this universe differs from the universe we have. It would then follow, if the arguments were sound, that ours was a universe created by an Intelligent Designer.

    But the problem is, that by definition such a universe would be one without life, since it could not possibly sustain life. The argument is thus demonstrated to be pitifully circular, since the conclusion (that life is designed) is already smuggled into the hidden premises of the argument.

    Thus, in any theoretical universe, even one that was the result of only natural processes, the inhabitants could think up the Design Argument and apply it. And they could just as well be wrong. Thus, the argument fails even the most basic test by not having any predictive power whatsoever.

    (I'll leave out answering carefully the totally ridiculous sharpshooter-'rebuttal' that Ross borrows from Craig. It is merely an analogy that has nothing to do with the subject at hand since 1) the participants are intelligent agents in the first place, and 2) the rules they follow are known, unlike the rules that creates universes.)

    I will also point out one serious flaw of the design argument based on the anthropic principle. I will argue that the weak anthropic principle (set out in the beginning) in fact is more compatible with naturlism than supernaturalism. The argument goes like this: the universe is in a form that is friendly to the development of life as we know it. But why, if the cause of Life is indeed a supernatural agent we usually call God, should we expect the universe to be naturally hospitable to life? A superhuman agent, in particular an omnipotent one, does not need the universe to be hospitable to life. Indeed, design theorists have pointed out that life as we know it consists of matter in the form of e.g. carbon, which is naturally created by supernova explosions. We are indeed star matter. But if God created life, why should he go through this elaborate process requiring billions of years? There is no good reason for this. God could just as well used creation by fiat in the sense that young earth creationists believe in (and then, the facts would support this).

    Actually, the anthropic principle seems to be a better argument against theism than for it.

    - Jan
    --
    - "How do you write women so well?" - "I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability." (Jack Nicholson in "As Good as it Gets")

  • ninjaturtle
    ninjaturtle

    Well we are talking about things like stars not igniting, or no elements higher than lithium being formed, or no stable orbits being possible.

    But yes, you have raised a different objection, that intelligent life is easy to create. Do you believe that?

    Or do you say that's just the way it is? Well if so, that's not a very scientific attitude.

    <b>The six numbers lurk in the universe's smallest and largest structures. To select one from the small end: The nucleus of a helium atom weighs 99.3 percent as much as the two protons and the two neutrons that fuse to make it. The remaining .7 percent is released mainly as heat. So the fuel that powers the sun— the hydrogen gas at its core— converts .007 of its mass into energy when it fuses into helium. That number is a function of the strength of the force that "glues" together the parts of an atomic nucleus.

    So what? Consider this: If the number were only a mite smaller— .006 instead of .007— a proton could not bond to a neutron, and the universe would consist only of hydrogen. No chemistry, no life. And if it were slightly larger, just .008, fusion would be so ready and rapid that no hydrogen would have survived from the Big Bang.</b>

    http://www.discover.com/nov_00/featlife.html

  • voltaire
    voltaire

    If the universe were just a random event and we got lucky, how would we know? We could never compare notes with all the other potential universes that might have come into existence but didn't. If we are here due to sheer, random forces, this is exactly the position we should expect to find ourselves in, everyone trying to figure out why the hell we're here!

    BTW, most scientists agree with the proposition that there's a God who set those paremeters. I believe the percentage of scientists who believe in God is 61%.

    BTW#2 This line of questioning in no way undermines the reality of evolution. We can posit a God who set the paremters and lit the fuse, so to speak, but there is still overwhelming evidence for evolution as opposed to special creation.

    BTW#3 If there is a God who set those paremeters, we are left wondering why he (she? it?) set in motion a world with so much suffering. Why have 99% of all species become extinct? Why doesn't he (she? it?) communicate with us?

    BTW#4 NAH! That'll do.

  • moman
    moman

    Strong or weak anthropic principle, proof is not possible, its just debate.

  • JanH
    JanH

    ninjaturtle again,

    So what? Consider this: If the number were only a mite smaller— .006 instead of .007— a proton could not bond to a neutron, and the universe would consist only of hydrogen. No chemistry, no life.

    You seem to presume that these numbers were drawn out of a hat on random. From what I have read about the topic, it seems very likely that values could simply not have been chosen much differently.

    And, of course, if chance of the universe happening is very, very small, you still have to deal with the fact that we are here now. The philsophical problems with the "anthropic principle" I have outlined above. Theism suffers from the same problems, only worse.

    - Jan
    --
    - "How do you write women so well?" - "I think of a man and I take away reason and accountability." (Jack Nicholson in "As Good as it Gets")

  • voltaire
    voltaire

    We have reached the point where God existence can't be resolved. The religious contingents among us have been pushed back into this corner. Almost everything around us can be explained without recourse to the supernatural. These are issues that are probably unresolvable by their very nature(unless there is a God and he wants to talk to us some day...hello out there!!!!)People with a religious commitment will always look for gaps in our understanding and claim that they've found God. In fact, this very phenomena can explained as a function of the ways our brains are wired. There's a great book you can probably find in any big bookstore in the biology section that explains that religious activities actually restrict bloodflow to that part of the brain that causes us to recognize ourselves as a separate entity from the rest of the universe. Chanting and meditation actually can cause one to feel "at one with the universe" or some higher power. I presume that religious belief, in the main, confered a survival advantage to those of our species that possessed it. I'm not sure if that will continue to be the case.

  • rem
    rem
    So what? Consider this: If the number were only a mite smaller— .006 instead of .007— a proton could not bond to a neutron, and the universe would consist only of hydrogen. No chemistry, no life. And if it were slightly larger, just .008, fusion would be so ready and rapid that no hydrogen would have survived from the Big Bang

    So I propose that this shows incontrovertible proof that the universe was created by an intelligent being to hold rocks, and life was an accidental by product of creating a universe full of rocks.

    This argument is just ridiculous. The same amount of 'tweaking' is necessary for non-living meteors or dust particles to exist. Life is such a small part of the universe - complex, but almost inconsequential in the big picture. Life is just a thin film of chemistry on a relatively small rock orbiting a mediocre star in an average galaxy in an incomprehensibly large universe. Even if life exists elsewhere (probable), it is still such a small part of the universe - who's to say it's not just a waste product of a universe ‘intelligently’ designed to hold rocks?

    rem

    "We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain

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