Science TV Show - AGuest and bohm please jump in

by EntirelyPossible 78 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • EntirelyPossible
    EntirelyPossible

    I started this thread to get a fresh start. I would like to know exactly what Shelby's problem with the TV show is. I know, there is another thread, but it was all over the place. To that end, I would am going to paste a quote of Shelby's from the other thread and try to stick to hashing that out. I will request civility, specificity in language (so we all agree on the terms we are using) and not going OT.

    I think it comes down to one word, Bohm... and it's not one that applies to me, in this instance: integrity. If religionists are expected to have some (and I believe they should be, given the number of people they wish to have follow them), I should think scientists just as much, if not even more so (they, too, want the world to "follow" them and their thinking. And I am NOT saying the world SHOULDN'T - that's another discussion entirely). To allow TV producers to just put stuff out there, willy-nilly, however... which is what you're suggesting (that "the TV producers make them do it!")... is, IMHO, a lack of integrity.

    A couple of questions, Shel:

    1) Specifically, what was wrong with the show?

    2) Specifically, what do you think scientists should do differently with respect to the shows?

    3) Do you think science is like religion and if so, why? Please be specific.

  • tec
    tec

    I'm not going to speak for Shelby or Bohm (but think perhaps they are each tired of that whole debate between them), but I would like to answer the last question if I may :) I could just start another thread too, and if you want me to, just say the word.

    Science is like some religion (in particular the WTS and similar sects), in the sense of 'new light'. You are supposed to believe what is 'true' right now, even though it could be wrong, until such a time as something new is learned. Now I don't know any scientists personally, so perhaps they are not the ones imposing such thoughts upon anyone. Perhaps it is just their "followers" who are so adamant that THIS (whatever this might be) is the truth, because science says so. And then some of them continue with the attitude that if you don't agree with it, then there's something wrong with you. (ie, too stupid, too ignorant, too deluded, too naive, etc) Even if, in ten years from now, you might be proven right in what you were skeptical about. You have to wait for the scientific community to agree with you (same as you might have to wait for the GB to agree with you, if you don't agree with something they have stated)

    Now I understand that true scientists (there's another similarity, in a way) don't claim things as fact and set in concrete, because they know that new information and discoveries can change everything they once thought they knew. In theory, they are supposed to relish something like that happening. It seems, however, that a great many people fear admitting this, perhaps thinking that it might make others dismiss scientific finds and theories as irrelevant. That isn't true, imo. But the reluctance to admit that conclusions and theories could be wrong is another similarity shared with religion and its followers.

    If you challenge the scientific community, you CAN be ostracised (even if you are also a scientist). Our history shows this with some of our greatest scientists, doesn't it? Same with religion - albeit on a much larger and harsher scale.

    (Although, also in science, peer questions and challenges are encouraged, in order to help keep the science from being biased.)

    As for differences, science is based on observable data - readily apparent to all. You don't need faith. You do (often) need to understand all the 'back' science though, in order to understand a new theory or find.

    I don't actually think the science itself is ever a problem. It makes no claims of itself. It is the people behind the science (or following the science like a religion, which I know is not everyone) - due to human error or pride or arrogance, that makes the problem.

    I can't say the same thing about religion, because religion itself is often the problem - perhaps because religion is the people behind faith. And I don't see faith as being a problem. Just the people behind it (true or not).

    Peace, and I hope that makes sense.

    Tammy

  • Curtains
    Curtains

    tammy, entirely possible

    this take may be of interest. I found it quite fascinating and admit that it rings true in my own case. sorry that is so long but it is a satisfying read. i'd like to hear your opinions

    http://larvalsubjects.wordpress.com/2011/08/12/transference-reading-and-discussion/#more-5257

    This evening I watched part of a show about Nostradamus. As I wrinkled my nose in disgust at the tenuous interpretations advocates would wring from his opaque and obscure prose, it occurred to me that this is really just an extreme version of what takes place in all reading and discussions. The disciples of Nostradamus find the meanings they want to find in Nostradamus in much the same way that we see many different figures when we look up at the passing clouds in the sky. Moreover, they are able to be persuaded by Nostradamus and to find things in him because they already see him as a source of knowledge and wisdom before even reading him.

    The point is that reading and persuasion seem to necessarily involve a dimension of transference. In vulger terms, transference is a phenomenon governing our relations to other persons and things that leads us to see them as containing some secret hidden treasure that we desire even where there is no evidence in words or deeds that provides evidence of this. Recall the way ardent Bush supporters talked about him during his presidency. Whatever Bush did, even when his actions and words appeared cruel or stupid, his supporters would say that he had good reasons for what he did (even though they couldn’t be fathomed) and that he was a good man in his heart. That’s the essence of transference: seeing the reasons as necessarily being there even where they are unknown, and seeing the intentions as being good and wise, even where they appear otherwise. Transference is this attribution of something in excess of the “appearance” that would render the appearance worthy and desireable. And, of course, negative transference would be the converse, where actions and deeds are perpetually attributed negative motives and a lack of good reason, despite how they might appear: “He bought my lunch but I know he’s really just trying to soften me up so I’ll let my guard down and he can stab me in my back!”

    Transference is a pervasive way in which we relate to the world. We see it in academics who have devoted their scholarship to a particular figure. In these cases there’s always a sort of operative distinction between the concrete and real text and the sublime “transferential text”. Regardless of what the concrete text might seem to clearly say, the axiom of the transferential text is that it answers all objections “a priori” and that it covers all the bases even where it seems to contain lacuna. This is why arguing with disciples of a particular philosopher can be so frustrating. They tend to operate at the level of the transferential text, not the concrete text. And the axiom of the transferential text is that it is never lacking or incomplete. We see it in the classroom as well. It is impossible for a student to learn if he doesn’t have any transference to the subject (ie, he doesn’t think the subject possesses what he lacks) or if he doesn’t have transference to the teacher. In the absence of this our minds just fuzz up and it sounds as if we’re being talked to in Greek.

    The same is true of texts. There’s a really bizarre way in which we already have to believe in a thinker or a text before reading it to learn from it. When I first began reading Lacan I couldn’t make heads or tails of him. Nonetheless, I was able to learn from Lacan because I already had a transferential relationship with him that led me to see him as containing truth even though I didn’t know what that truth was. There are other philosophers, by contrast, that I am unable to learn from at all. It is not because they are particularly difficult, but rather that I don’t have any transference to them and therefore nothing they say “sticks”. It’s literally as if what I read by such philosophers falls out of my ear a moment after reading it. This can, of course, change when you encounter the same philosopher at a different point in life and your libidinal cathexes and desires have changed.

    And finally, the same is true with discussions. If there is no transference between the participants in discussion it seems as if it is impossible for them to hear one another, for things to sink in or be processed, even though they are addressing to one another and responding to one another. I’ve often witnessed this on political blogs, especially since the division that took place among democrats following Obama’s appointments. Democrats split into those that support him and those enraged by his appointment of Rubanite economic advocates. Ever since the two sides have coded each other as enemies and seem constitutively unable to hear one another as a result. Each side sees the other side as empty of any truth and therefore are unable to hear one another (and as an aside, I do not think this is something to be deplored. There are real and fundamental differences here and one has to take sides. It’s simply false when people suggest that “we’re all fighting for the same thing” or that “we’re all on the same side”, just as it’s false to say all religions share the same values. Those that support Rubanite or neoliberal policies are not fighting for the same things I am, no matter how many excuses they might give for the necessity of pursuing these things).

    What produces transference is always mysterious and can be wildly unrelated to the thing one transfers onto. It can be the presence of a mere signifier. It can be transference to some other person who is, in some way, associated to this thing. It can arise from some childhood trauma or joy that creates a passion for something. Who knows? The source of the transference, however, is never first in the thing to which we attach itself. When the atheist sets upon the believer, systematically destroying those beliefs, for example, he would do well to remember that it’s never just about the beliefs but that there’s a whole network of libidinal attachment to family, spouses, lovers, friends, rituals, festivals, etc, of which the beliefs are but the tip of the iceberg. Tenacious attachment to these beliefs might very well be, in many cases, tenacious attachment to these other libidinal investments.

    I am not deploring the existence of transference or the role that love plays in our social relations. Besides, to do so would be futile as it seems largely inescapable and because love or transference is a condition for all learning. We can only learn from that which we love. Rather, being aware of transference allows me to attain a little bit of sanity. The philosopher in me, of course, is offended by transference. I would love it if rational and well constructed arguments could win the day and produce persuasion in both myself and others. But the phenomenon of transference dictates that these arguments can’t even be heard by the addressee unless some transference is already operative. Nothing an atheist says to a Christian fundamentalist is going to persuade them and vice versa because the addressee in either case does not see the speaker as containing that “secret treasure” that carries knowledge and truth.

    If this helps me to retain a little sanity in an otherwise mad world, then this is because it councils me to step away from certain discussions and arguments because the “communicative conditions” are not present there for anything productive to take place. And knowing when to step away also helps me to “soldier on” or continue doing what I do as a function of my own transferences. And lest anyone wonder, this diary is not prompted by any discussions I’ve recently had but arose from reflections on my experience of blogging and online interaction in general. Rather than being demoralized that persuasion does not always take place, I instead recognize that the world is saturated with many different loves and that these loves carry people in many different directions… Often in directions contrary to my own. The best I can do is continue to speak and write and hope that in doing so I encounter those from whom I can learn and grow.

  • bohm
    bohm

    Tammy, sorry i do not respond to your entire post, but i want to ask you about this remark in all sincerity:

    Science is like some religion (in particular the WTS and similar sects), in the sense of 'new light'. You are supposed to believe what is 'true' right now, even though it could be wrong, until such a time as something new is learned.

    Mind, i am simply asking for clarification. Could you give one solid example of a specific scientific idea in physics we are "supposed to believe", and some information of why you see the scientific community is trying to enforce that belief, and how?

    I write it because i cant come up with any examples myself. For instance, ofcourse we are "supposed to believe" the scientific idea the earth orbit the sun, but that is more like saying you are supposed to believe elvis is dead and the price you pay for not believing it is redicule because, well, it is exceptionally stupid. Can the idea the earth orbit the sun "really be wrong"? I dont think any of us believe that, and thus it fail as an example. Also, i think the main cause of redicule would be the justifications used to justify why the earth did not orbit the sun, which in all cases i have seen are incredibly bad.

    On the other hand, there are ideas that are widely accepted but may be wrong --for instance the existence of the higgs particle-- but who are saying you are supposed to believe it exist (and the standard model is true?), in what sence are you "supposed to believe it"? What are the consequences for questioning its existence?.

    After all, if everybody supposed everybody should believe it existed, what is the purpose of building a huge collider to check if it is really there?

    I simply cannot come up with any examples which match the criteria for your comparison.

    For that reason i have a very hard time understanding why you use such a loaded phrase as "new light". In order to use such a loaded analogy, there must be some very solid justification, otherwise it ring of trying to make a comparison which make a lot of people look more suspect than they really are by comparison.

    For instance, if i was to compare a religious group with a bunch of jihadists, the reason for me to draw that analogy had to rely on core properties in jihadists and the religious group, not someting vague like both believing in god.

    ps.

    Please dont refer me to a fringe section of the internet who have desided you are "supposed to believe" some pet idea, clearly such people (who are fringe to the scientific community) does not justify a comparison between science (as a whole) and new light.

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    Tec

    Science is like some religion (in particular the WTS and similar sects), in the sense of 'new light'. You are supposed to believe what is 'true' right now, even though it could be wrong, until such a time as something new is learned. Now I don't know any scientists personally, so perhaps they are not the ones imposing such thoughts upon anyone. Perhaps it is just their "followers" who are so adamant that THIS (whatever this might be) is the truth, because science says so. And then some of them continue with the attitude that if you don't agree with it, then there's something wrong with you. (ie, too stupid, too ignorant, too deluded, too naive, etc) Even if, in ten years from now, you might be proven right in what you were skeptical about. You have to wait for the scientific community to agree with you (same as you might have to wait for the GB to agree with you, if you don't agree with something they have stated)

    I gave this answer to Aguest in the other thread, perhaps it will help explain why science changes so often.

    It is best to think of change in formulas or equations or theory as simply giving a more accurate or complete answer. If I told you I have a house or I told you I have a house with three bedrooms and a garage, which answer is correct? They both are, it is just that one is a more complete answer. Giving a more complete answer doesn't make the simpler answer wrong.

    The fundamental difference between science and religion is that anyone (no matter who they are) is free to prove the scientific community wrong. If (for example) Aguest wishes to prove that Hawking is wrong then she can put her money where her mouth is and publish her own papers. It is quite straightforward to get the scientific community to agree with you, all you need is cold hard empirical evidence.

    The scientific community love to disagree with each other, it is how you get recognized.

    As to being too stupid, it has nothing to do with stupidity, as Bohm pointed out it may simply be a case that you simply do not speak the same language (i.e. maths)

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    The problem with science is the same problem with religion:

    People.

    Science makes no statement, people do.

    Religion is a set of beliefs that PEOPLE decide to put a "name" to.

    Science is about what is observable in the natural world and makes no comments beyond said overservation:

    At 100 celcius, water evaporates.

    Nothing else needs to be said about this and science says nothing else beyond this.

    When a scientist says that because science proves that water evaporates at 100 C and as such, there is no God, then the scientist is going beyond science into the relm of person opinion that has NOTHING to do with science.

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    Sacramento,

    When a scientist says that because science proves that water evaporates at 100 C and as such, there is no God, then the scientist is going beyond science into the relm of person opinion that has NOTHING to do with science.

    Naturally you would have evidence of scientists saying that science proves god doesn't exist?

  • bohm
    bohm

    PSac, i follow your point completely, but then the statement is something to the effect of the scientific community (as an awfully poorly defined body of people, and hopefully not something which is defined to include fringe idiots on the internet) in their way of expressing existing knowledge (awfully poorly defined too, print, speech, journal articles, etc.) resemble the governing body which is wildly different in any aspect one can think of (organizational, how they derive knowledge, how open the process is, how unified, etc. etc.). The only point of meaningfull comparison, it seem, is that both sides sometimes alter their beliefs.

    i just dont see why the analogy is anything but extremely strained and uninformative.

    What bugs me is this: why bother with such an awfully strained analogy, when what is being equated --implicitly-- is something we all dislike and associate with extreme intellectual bancrupcy (the governing body)?

    It is impossible for me to understand why someone would think that is a particular good way to clarify how one persieve the scientific process and express that to other. However it make an awfull lot of sence why someone would use such a poor and loaded analogy if one was interested in "throwing dirt" at science and generally piss people off, and didnt have a way of making the critisism in an open way.

    argument by analogy suck. argument by poor analogy sucks even more. Analogy by random GB comparison is the "just like hitler" of JWN.

  • sizemik
    sizemik

    The science v religion thing is not even analogous, except to point out a commonality of human frailty which exists any any field of human endeavour, to a greater or lesser degree. Therefore the participants in the analogy could be anyone or anything . . . or all of them.

    So to put the analogy forward in the first place is more like a red herring. The bottom line is this . . . In the religious search for "truth" or "fact", science should be an ally . . . not an adversary.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Unless we are talking about a PBS program, the purpose of TV (even news now. See Babytot and Warren Jeffs) is entertainment. Entertainment which will bring viewers which will bring income to the producers and network. Most shows will state that they are following the work of one scholar, and we are to infer that his theory was the most ratings-attracted. Dr. Phil and Dr. Drew put on these pseudo-medical shows but if you slow the credits down by quite a bit, it will have a disclaimer that it is an entertainment program and not intended to give medical advice. (which they certainly do). Shrinks are forbidden from diagnosing someone they have not met in person. They always have a gentle disclaimer, so gentle I doubt many people realize it.

    My understanding is that science is fluid. Theories change as new data emerges. I have no idea which show gave such umbrage.

    My example of this is Seven Dirty Words by George Carlin. This very cool, pacific radio network played the album in the NY area. A very conservative jerk was listening. Why would Mr. Conservative listen in the first place knowing the type of material WBAI broadcast. HIs young son was in the back seat. As Carlin regaled the audience with the abusrdity of dirty words,, he used every variation. Rather than turning off the radio, Mr. Father let his son listen to the enitre 45 minutes. He did not pull aside and call WBAI. He did file a complaint with the FCC. All the dirty words are used extensively in a Supreme Court opinion, and dissent. Turning off the knob is easy and fun.

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