I'm speed reading through revelation right now...

by cptkirk 17 Replies latest watchtower beliefs


    Try reading Revalation backwards.

    It still won't make any sense but it will bring you to another 65 'books' that that by comparison almost make sense.

  • cptkirk

    gladiator: you shouldn't of said that. now i'm going to read the whole bible backwards in search of codes!

    you ever see that thing where they play obama saying yes we can backwards, and it says thankyou satan? maybe the bible is similar.

  • PSacramento

    Actually the whole apocalyptic genre is very consistent, compare Revelation with Daniel and Enoch1.

    The imagery and such is typical Hebrew apocalyptic writing.

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Revelation was the one book that absolutely held me in bondage to fear. When I took NT in college, the prof. explained that apocalytpic genre was almost as popular as novels today. Hundreds of aposcalyptic scripture exist in several religion. The author of Revelation, not the apostle John, wrote in a time of relentresss persecution. Rome had never been more certain of suspressing Christianity. One paper I wrote was on the martyrdoms, particularly in Lyons.Too many zealous Christians volunteered, the broken under torture, giving away names and servants of every Christian they might know just a bit. These people were not prepared for martyrdom. Some churches regarded your birthday (shows it was celebrate) as immaterial. Your true birthday in Christ was the date of martyrdom.

    John's message was the very oppsoite of what the Witnesses taught. He offered courage and good news. Numerology was also very prevelant. If he wrote the Emperor's name in Latin, John woujld have a meeting with lions or worse. Somehow the Romans looked the other way if numbers were used. Using numerology conventions from outside and inside Christianity, he references world events current to his time. Not ours.

    When I started studying Revelation, I could spit on it in disgust. The terror cannot be understated. Reading consecutive verses before i read commentary, I had a different take. After the commentary, I now find Revelation one of the most beautiful books.

    I believe it is the hardest Bible book to understand without commentary.I read 1,000 page and all the fns in koine Greek, even though i don't understand it. I don't remember details about beasts, and horsemen, etc. Biible are accessible.



  • cptkirk

    sacramento: "The imagery and such is typical Hebrew apocalyptic writing." <--you say that as if it means something. actually stanley kubrick's depiction of vietnam is very typical of 20th century vietnam film depictions. wtf does that mean? nothing. you say this stuff as if we dont know it already.

  • cptkirk

    band: the notion that he was encoding his words out of fear seems pretty out of character for mr. sons of thunder. what precedent is there in the bible for writing in code? from the wts there is no precedent, which seems reasonable. seems hard enough to try and take seriously a 2,000 year old book about god, which condones every sort of murder, incest, hate crimes....to begin with, then on top of it all, you have to decode it. when are you people going to give up???

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    There is numerology in the Hebrew Scriptures. My sources are Elaine Pagels in NT class at Columbia and, more importantly, the massive Isbon T. Beckwith, The Apocalypse of John: Studies in Introduction With Critical and Exegetical Commentary (1919). I did not want any denominational gloss so I travelled by subway to Union Theological Seminary, a nondenominational Christian seminary with such luminaries as Dietrich Bonhoffer (already executed by the time I attended but profs who knew him well came to class and told us some private things), Dead Sea Scroll translators. It is considered the most academic, intellectual of all the NY seminaries. An entire Protestant complex was donated by the Rockefellers b/c his wife was Baptist and Baptists were held in low esteem. The down side is that an old boy network is helpful after you graduate. It is very hard to be admitted.

    I asked the librarian to recommend a comprehensive book on Revelation. My fears were expressed. The early date concerned me. I don't know about every detail but I've heard the same gist in almost all NT books. There was no NT when the author of John wrote. Jewish, Christian, Gnostic writings are full of apocalyptic genre. Once I understood it was a writing stye, fear left me. If anyone ever said I would find Revelation beautiful and moving, I would have bet them one million.

    Niebuhr, and another major German prof taught there for at least a while. It was heady after the KH to hear a translator of the Dead Sea Scrolls (very full of himself) discuss the international consensus and worry that physically open them would totally destroy them. I walked down the same halls as Dietrich Bonhoffer. My dream was to study Gnosticism at Union. I could not see a career path and languages are not my forte.

    Does it matter what others say? Your interpretation is as valid as any one else's outlook. Scads of stuff is written in code. It all makes so much sense compared to the Witness teachings.

    The subdean of the Cathedral taught us saying crowns within crowns, a literal reading, is a total absurd notion. The Witnesses don't seem to interpret it literally. Rather, they substitute their own code. Revelation brought me freedom.

  • cptkirk

    "Scads of stuff is written in code." <---that is what i figured. you believe it's almost all code dont ya?

    i'm not trying to make anyone believe anything. all i'm asking is: is it logical to believe this?

    and if the answer is no. logic plays almost no part in our(your/religious humans) methods of understanding the scriptures (gnostic scriptures

    included). then i want you people to know what you are actually saying. what you're actually saying is: you believe in anarchy. which again, is your


    but please understand this line of thinking will lead to the inevitable destruction of the human race entirely.

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