The WT cleverly substitutes the word "servitude" with the word "desolation" whenever attempting to justify their erroneous chronology (as if these could be used interchangeably when discussing the 70-year period)... The fact is that the desolation (of any of the nations serving the king of Babylon) only resulted from not having submitted to the 70 years of servitude... For example, Judah stopped serving Babylon after about 20 years and suffered the consequence of becoming desolate for the remaining 70 years of that servitude... It's as simple as that.
a SIMPLE answer re: 607 please
by RayPublisher 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Alfred
Correction: ... For the remaining 50 years of servitude...
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Mad Sweeney
Simple answer is what Alfred said. The 70 years prophecy says nothing about Jerusalem or destruction. It is about servitude of the nations in the region that were subdued by Babylon. It is completely unrelated to the Seven Times prophecy except for the fact that the Borg uses it to erroneously establish 607 as the start of those seven times leading up to 1914.
Ask them to read the scripture in Jeremiah. Then ask them to show you where it mentions the destruction of Jerusalem. When it isn't there, ask them why they try to teach that it is and whether that isn't disingenuous.
Then ask them to start with the last Neo-Babylonian king and list them all in reverse order, with the years they ruled, back to the destruction of Jerusalem.
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leavingwt
Simple answer: Never discuss doctrine with a cult member.
Even if you persuade them on this particular topic, Watchtower will STILL be God's Organization, to them.
Where else would they go?
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wolfman85
Read this book
The Gentile Times Reconsidered -by Carl Olof Jonsson
He was a JW when he wrote it. It's great!!! I think you can get it online (PDF).
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Witness My Fury
The question is this: 70 years of WHAT? Servitude or desolation? And applied to where, Jerusalem or to "all these nations". Read the prophecy again in Jeremiah (as that is who it was supposedly given to in the 1st place).
607 "appears" valid only from a narrow forced application of the scriptures, but read from context and historical fact it cannot be correct.
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AnnOMaly
Some great pointers/info. above. Alfred and Mad Sweeney for the 'bottom line' suggestions.
It's not going to be 'simple' but, FWIW, I think it'll be valuable for you to take a little time out to read and digest this excellent scholarly article which allows for a literal interpretation of the '70 years' while harmonizing the Scripture texts and history (similar to some of the info. above).
"Jeremiah's Seventy Years For Babylon: A Re-Assessment. Part 1, The Scriptural Data" by Ross E. Winkle.
(In case you want to continue reading, click on "Part 2, The Historical Data.")
You may still end up going around in circles with your relative, however. But if one thing can be driven home in your relative's mind: there are others who take the Bible seriously and are Christians who can reconcile the traditional chronology (587/6) with the scriptural testimony, so why does the WTS insist on going out on a limb here? (We know the answer, of course.)
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Hoffnung
Ask them what documents were used to establish the accepted pivotal date of 539 BCE. Ask them then if they accept these documents to hold reliable dates. If the answer is yes, you can the read the entire documents and find therein 586 BCE confirmed.
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Crisis of Conscience
RayPublisher - Take a look at the following thread:
CoC
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RayPublisher
Several helpful comments- thank you.
Not to be a pessimist, but leavingwt may have said it best:
"Simple answer: Never discuss doctrine with a cult member.
Even if you persuade them on this particular topic, Watchtower will STILL be God's Organization, to them.
Where else would they go?"