Do you believe in an annointed class? (page 3)

godrulz

Without giving biblical detail, support, the NT teaches that all those who trust Christ are born again/anointed. Jew and Gentile are one in Christ in the Church Age. WT heresy is a mix of truth and error. Many Christians emphasize heaven and do not understand the earthly issues. The earth issues relate to Israel, not the Church. Heaven is not limited to 144K, a major doctrinal error by WT (caste system that negates the person and work of Christ as mediator for all except a few; negates much of the NT for the average believer).

Basic overview (which will contradict WT on many points; futurist, pre-tribulation rapture, pre-millennial Second Coming view; other Christians hold to other views like amillennial, post-trib, etc., but I don't believe these are biblical).

The imminent return of Christ is when He comes back FOR the Church. This can happen at any time. The Church Age saints (from first century to present) will be taken to heaven with glorified bodies. Old Testament saints and those who die during the Tribulation period (Daniel's 70th week) will be raised after the Tribulation and the OT, Church, dead Trib martyr saints will rule and reign with Christ in glorified bodies after they come back WITH Him at His visible Second Coming (the whole 1914 doctrine is false, especially his supposed invisible return). The only ones who enter the millennium on earth (Paradise) are those who survive the Tribulation in natural bodies and were believers in Christ during this time. The unregenerate dead from the ages and those who die during the millennium will be raised after the 1000 years at the Great White Throne judgment. Most will be cast into the lake of fire, but the righteous millennial saints will go into the New Heaven and New Earth.

Contrary to WT, there is no general resurrection for a second chance during the 1000 years. There is no annihilation. OT saints are not on earth. So, WT is right about heavenly and earthly hope, but are wrong about 144K and Great Crowd (they once taught the crowd was in heaven, then went into more darkness vs new light). Most past/present saints will have a heavenly hope and the survivors of Armageddon (I hope there will be Jews/Muslims/Mormons/JWs, etc. who realize they were wrong and convert to the true Christ during this time; former JWs who become Christians and die or do so before the rapture will have a heavenly hope; former JWs who become Christians after the rapture and live beyond the Second Coming will have a heavenly hope).

So, when they complain that if we all go to heaven that there will be no one to rule on earth...problem solved...surviving Trib saints will be on earth. The key is that there is a different program for Israel (OT) and the Church. The Trib is a time of restoring Israel and wrath on Gentile nations. The Church Age is now and we are not appointed to wrath and have a hope of being with Jesus (most JWs will never be close to Jesus in their scheme; Christianity has much more to offer than cults do).

TDaze

There isn't anything close that doesn't require language twisting and mental gymnastics to support any sort of earthly resurrection. Heavenly resurrection is implied throughout the NT.

Indeed. Due to the clashing with other cultures, especially the Greco-Roman culture and its myths, the idea of an afterlife truly started to work its way into Judaism. The time when Jesus was supposedly living was a time where the idea of dying and going to heaven was this new insight into the nature of the divine realm.

Bella15

A lot of confusion would be solved if true seekers of the truth would look into literal Israel in prophecy today. God is not done with literal Israel yet.

godrulz

Israel (and Christ) is the key to prophecy. The JW Convention talk this year that made Anglo-America an issue was as misguided as cultist Herbert W. Armstrong's British Israelism (well, not quite). There will be a future resurrection, but it is not a general resurrection of everyone all at once.

NewChapter

Perhaps you should support that last comment with a scripture or two.

There will be a future resurrection, but it is not a general resurrection of everyone all at once.

And just to fill you in on JW doctrine--they don't actually believe it will be everyone at once. They believe that the most recently deceased along with faithful men of old will be first. Then they believe that in the course of 1000 years older and older groups will be resurrected. I won't support that with scripture, I only inform you that this is the actual teaching.

godrulz

I believe most will be resurrected after Armageddon or proximal to it. WT has changed this and other views so many times that it is hard even for a JW to know what was believed or is believed now (subject to change at any moment).

If we look at all the eschatological verses, a chronology emerges. Daniel implies a general resurrection, but this is not uncommon for OT prophecy to see mountain peaks of truth without the mystery valley being revealed (such as the present Church Age). Pauline theology and Johannine writing cannot support one resurrection, but a sequence as I outlined.

Things to Come (a definitive work; click look inside for contents)

AnnOMaly

Hi Mad Sweeney,

[Ann formerly] There is no scriptural mention of a heavenly resurrection either.

[MadS] Not in so many words but John 14 Jesus says he's going to heaven to prepare a place for his followers and that he would come back, get them, and bring them to that place with him.

He doesn't say he's going to heaven. He says he is going to his Father's house to prepare a place for his disciples and that there are many rooms in that house. Yes, he says he's coming back for them and that his disciples will be where he will be, but he doesn't specify where that is (cp. 1 Thess. 4:16, 17).

If you believe the Bible, there are only three possibilities: 1) they are still alive on earth and haven't died yet, 2) they die and are resurrected to heaven, 3) they don't die but are brought to heaven without dying

There are other possibilities, hence the link.

There isn't anything close that doesn't require language twisting and mental gymnastics to support any sort of earthly resurrection. Heavenly resurrection is implied throughout the NT.

Implication is not quite the same as a "scriptural mention," therefore, and there have to be certain assumptions in place first to interpret the 'heaven' texts as referring to the place where believers will spend eternity.

It's also worth considering that the idea of escaping the physical world to spend eternity in the ethereal world is more Gnostic than Christian. In much of mainstream Christianity, heaven is supposed to be the intermediate state - the state BEFORE bodily resurrection and the eternal state. Of course, this all has implications for how one sees man's nature (the soul/spirit/body issue) and how we understand Jesus' own resurrection (whether resurrected as a spirit or, as mainstream Christianity would have it, bodily resurrected). However, despite all these tangles, we mustn't forget that the Bible clearly mentions a 'new earth' as well as a 'new heaven.' Who or what is the 'new earth' going to be for? This has to be factored in.

And there's always going to be a little 'language twisting' and 'mental gymnastics' involved when trying to harmonize interpretations of Bible texts whatever doctrine we're plumbing for ;-)

MrDarkKnight

I have a fundamental problem with the teaching that only 144,000 persons go to heaven. TF the selection process of a LIMITED NUMBER began at Pentecost 33 CE and has continued for 1,988 years, and there have always been anointed on the earth at some time, and there have been MILLIONS of Christians since 33CE, why are there still 10,000 plus openings? Would this number not have been filled YEARS ago? Why does the number GROW?

It is not a logical teaching and is a subject of my personal investigation of the Bible since this belief is at the crux of the JW belief system. No anointed means no Faithful and Discreet Slave. No Faithful and Discreet Slave means all of the so-called fulfillments of prophecy commented ad nauseum in the WTS publications are not from the channel of God afterall and the FDS is not the final authority on truth. If the FDS is not the final authority on truth then....uh oh....

Mad Sweeney

In much of mainstream Christianity, heaven is supposed to be the intermediate state - the state BEFORE bodily resurrection and the eternal state.

I have maybe met one or two people in my life who believe this. It may be official doctrine of several denominations but your rank and file mainstream Christians generally believe that when you die you go to heaven and they don't think beyond that.

But back to John 14. To think the place Christ said he was going to prepare for his disciples is earth, one would also have to believe the earth is where his Father lives. He said he's going to where his father lives to prepare a place for his disciples. But some Christians believe this abode is temporary or intermediate. Ok. We're back to the same dearth of scripture referring to an earthly resurrection. It may be some church's official doctrine and it may be believed by some Christians. But it isn't in the Bible. Which was my only real point. Heavenly resurrection is strongly implied, if not outright stated; earthly resurrection is not even implied.

dm6

it always made me laugh about the anointed and how they though tthey were so special and different. but the thing is, they actually have more sense than the rest of the Jws do. Since when you die everyone gets judged then, not in some new body on earth all over again. So they recognize they will go to heaven! good for them! so do i! unless i turn monstrous....

Do you believe in an annointed class?

Share this