by dgp 48 Replies latest watchtower bible
Wobble makes a good point. They say that translators for the NWT don't need to know Hebrew and Greek, but they could more truthfully have said that they actually prefer it that way. A translator who actually knows the original languages is more likely to want to make improvements, not something the Society would welcome.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/private/86744/1/The-French-NWT
However, if there is a specific need for the New
World Translation, as when a particular point in question
is made only by it, then the verse may be translated from
it.
This one is telling, also. They admit here that there are things in the NWT that aren't in ANY OTHER Bible. Think about that. If it isn't in any other Bible, what's it doing in the NWT?
While the original New World Translation was rendered from the ancient biblical languages , all editions in different contemporary languages never were.
Also, the part above in bold is incorrect. There was nobody on the original NWT committee who knew the ancient Biblical languages. Crazy Freddie had two years of Greek. Nobody else had anything. No Hebrew. No Aramaic. And nobody fluent in Greek. They created the NWT in English using their own doctrines and already-translated interlinear Bibles.
This one is telling, also. They admit here that there are things in the NWT that aren't in ANY OTHER Bible. Think about that. If it isn't in any other Bible, what's it doing in the NWT?
I am sure all Bibles have at least some verses where they offer unique renderings.
Also, the part above in bold is incorrect. There was nobody on the original NWT committee who knew the ancient Biblical languages. Crazy Freddie had two years of Greek. Nobody else had anything. No Hebrew. No Aramaic. And nobody fluent in Greek. They created the NWT in English using their own doctrines and already-translated interlinear Bibles.
I think it is reasonable to assume that Fred Franz did have a working knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, even if he was largely self-taught. That was the view Raymond Franz, who mentioned in one of his books that he observed his uncle reading Hebrew manuscripts in the museum for extended periods of time.
I am sure all Bibles have at least some verses where they offer unique renderings.
The manual doesn't talk about "unique renderings" it talks about "a particular point in question is made only by it (the NWT)." Different renderings can make the same point. Different points are well, different meanings.
I think it is reasonable to assume that Fred Franz did have a working knowledge of Hebrew and Greek, even if he was largely self-taught. That was the view Raymond Franz, who mentioned in one of his books that he observed his uncle reading Hebrew manuscripts in the museum for extended periods of time.
I have seen this asserted before. I don't recall that in anything I read from Raymond Franz and an electronic search* doesn't find anything in either of Ray's two major books. Was it in another essay not in CoC or ISoCF? I have never seen any evidence that Fred Franz knew any significant amount of Hebrew or Greek. I could take an interlinear and my own ideas and make a Bible version out of it. I'm not sure why Fred Franz needs to be given any special knowledge when it is pretty clear that's precisely what he did. Ball's in your court to produce some evidence please.
(*I've looked for and read the context around every instance of: uncle, translation, Greek, New World, New World Translation, translate, museum, library, manuscript in both books. Nothing about Fred Franz doing any research at all, regardless of language.)
InWatchTower World..
A Jehovah`s Witness can never be Too WatchTarded!..
It is not necessary for Bible translators to know Hebrew and Greek..
Jehovah`s Witness`s should Guard their Tard..
Never let a Worldly person Take your Tard..
............................ 
...OUTLAW
Aristeas is making a very valid point. How the hell is a worldly supposed to have a document that many a Bethelite does not get to see? Well, I happen to have obtained it from a former witness who keeps a blog. I obtained other documents and files, and the Watchtower CD, from other sources as well.
I am uploading a few images that I took from the PDF file I received. This is for credibility. You might say that I got a fake file, but, as far as I know, this is a legitimate thing.
I was never a witness and never will be, but this was shocking news for me. I wonder if you guys know this, but all the New World Translation Bibles in languages other than English contain a legend in the first pages, to the effect of something like "This Bible was translated from the English version, with a careful consultation of the original Hebrew and Greek". Well, THAT IS A BLATANT LIE. Every witness whose native language is not English has been lied to in the very first pages of those bibles.
Sometime ago I had come to suspect that the Watchtower does not care about the translations being faithful to the original. They just need the translations into other languages to be faithful to the English version. That is how they can fully control what is being said, and how. It's not a matter of being true to God, if you think the Bible was inspired by him; it's a matter of people receiving the message they want them to receive, whether it comes from God or not. As in, "For example: “The Lord [“Jehovah,” NW] is my shepherd.” The Lord in question is good ol' "Kyrios", not YHWH.
Here are the pictures:
The page from which I took my first post:
Mad Sweeney:
"While the original New World Translation was rendered from the ancient biblical languages , all editions in different contemporary languages never were.
Also, the part above in bold is incorrect. There was nobody on the original NWT committee who knew the ancient Biblical languages."
That is NOT totally correct. Some in the NWT Committee had more than a working knowledge of Hebrew and Greek. All it takes to disprove the common assumption that the NWT was incompetent to do translation work is to "get our hands dirty" and go straight to the Hebrew and Greek, and the more we learn, the more we'll see that someone did have sufficient knowledge to do it. I don't believe those common claims, because I have done myself some digging in the guts of the NWT itself.
Ray Franz, with whom I spoke personally with, told me he was miffed about evangelicals taking his footnote on one of his books and concluding Fred had zero knowledge, and that their motives were inappropiate. He personally was confident that Fred was knowledgeable enough to produce a "creditable" translation. Those were his words. Then he told me of Fred Franz spending hours with a WT Hebrew translator (a female) native in Israel who was surprised at Fred's depth in the Hebrew department. She was able to help her with some translation issues, even though she was experienced translating WT publications from Hebrew to English. Ray himself has told quite a few people that Fred was always able to help him with the Hebrew and Greek difficulties he encountered while preparing Aid to Bible Understanding. Guess what: Ray was no dummy himself. He is an excellent and careful writer who relied on Fred Franz superior knowledge in the language dpt. Ray said he was "unusually disciplined in the language department."
A few scholars who teach Greek use the Kingdom Interlinear in their colleges with their students, and have stated that the KIT is the best interlinear on the market. Guess who worked on the KIT? Ray told me that it was Freddy. Yes, Freddy. And think about this:
E. J. Goodspeed who was quoted by the WTS stating that ‘the NWT exhibits sound serious learning, as he could testify,' and said the "NWT was a scholarly work," was pressured by many evangelicals to come out and condemn the NWT. He never condemned the Greek NT. The only thing negative they were able to get came from an ex-Bethelite, about the grammar of the Hebrew-English portion was "regrettable (in the sense of un-English)." But he translated the Greek NT, not the Hebrew OT. Goodspeed added that 'evidently you WT translators are good scholars.’ BTW, George Gangas spoke Greek, something many trained bible scholars cannot do. Yes, I know that his Greek was Modern not Koine, but it is not that difficult to adapt to their differences.
Frankly, I am puzzled that so many ex-Witnesses fall prey in readily believing the mostly "evangelical" attacks on the NWT without doing deep research themselves.
Also, the WT publication saying that translators need not know Hebrew and English to do translation work must be taken within their context. I have checked the NWT in various languages, and I have seen many cases where the translators didn't just translate from the English carelessly, but went right into the Hebrew and Greek for the translation. They did not use a straight translation from the English. Their translation teams are quite impressive. I know so. Spanish in some cases is closer to Hebrew and Greek and when that is the case, the translation teams cleverly went with the original language instead of the English base.This may sound strange, but I think the WT is more careful with bible translation than with other publications.
So please, let us not be parroting questionable "evangelical" perceptions here for the sake of WT organizational failures.
MS
I could take an interlinear and my own ideas and make a Bible version out of it.
You probably could, but you'd almost certainly have a mountain of stylistic anomalies in the finished product. You'd have no way of knowing if you were handling idioms, pet expressions, unusual word choices and conjugations in anything resembling a consistent fashion.
The NWT is criticized for many things (And rightly so) but it does have a pretty consistent translational style.
Speaking about the New World Translation in Spanish, Wonderment says that
the translation teams cleverly went with the original language instead of the English base.
and
Spanish in some cases is closer to Hebrew and Greek and when that is the case, the translation teams cleverly went with the original language instead of the English base.
I suppose Wonderment means that "Spanish is closer [than English] to Hebrew and Greek. Well, I'm not sure about how close English is to Greek. As a native speaker of Spanish (no secret by now), I do know that, however great the abilities of English translators may be, if I had to read something originally written in Greek, as the New Testament, I would simply not choose the translation into English. The reason is, Spanish does have very fine translators who can translate straight from Greek. I could point ouf the name of Luis Segalá i Estalella (http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/2883868.Luis_Segala). My copy of the Illiad was translated by him. He was, by the way, a Catalonian, not a Castilian (more on that later), as his name makes clear. He passed away in 1938, when Barcelona was being bombed. But there is a tradition of translation, right from the classics. A native speaker of Spanish is best at rendering the nuances of the Greek text. We learn Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, Sappho, Homer, all in Spanish. In short, then, there's no need for a speaker of Spanish to use a translation from Greek into English and then into Spanish.
But Wonderment's statement is that the translators of the Watchtower went "with the original language instead of the English base". He may be interested, then, in this scan I made of a New World Translation bible in Spanish. In the middle of the page, you will see the words "Una traducción revisada basada en la versión de 1984 en inglés, pero consultando fielmente los antiguos textos hebreo y griego", which means "A revised translation based on the 1984 English version, but faithfully consulting the ancient Hebrew and Greek texts". The Watchtower itself is saying that they DIDN'T translate from the originals.
I invite anyone to check their black New World Translation Bibles in Spanish and see if this page is not there.
I find it curious that Wonderment says that Spanish is "closer to Hebrew". I suppose he means "closer to Hebrew than English". Well, it's not. I happen to know that because we took long lessons in the origins of Spanish while we were in school, on a subject called, erm, "Spanish". But, for the benefit of others, I am copying a link to "Influences on the Spanish language" (Wikipedia): https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Influences_on_the_Spanish_language
Someone will claim that there are many Jews who speak Spanish today. Yes, they do. They call themselves "ladinos" (we call them "sefarditas"), and they are the descendants of the many Jews who settled in Sefarad, the name they gave to Spain, and who were expelled by King Ferdinand the Catholic in 1492. But these people speak SPANISH, though an old form of it. That is to say, it is they who received the influence of Spanish, and not viceversa. Check yourselves: http://www.aki-yerushalayim.co.il/index.htm
I agree with Wonderment here:
Also, the WT publication saying that translators need not know Hebrew and English to do translation work must be taken within their context.
Yes, you're very right. The context is this: A translation was made by the Watchtower, into English. All other translations have been made from English into the desired language. Spanish is no exception. This is a very poor translation practice. It is not done that way in order to be true to the originals, but to produce copies of the English version.
By the way, that means that the sentence is the middle of the scan above is a blatant lie.
Wonderment's defense of the translation into English is questionable, and, besides, I think it's fake. He claims to have witnessed the work of the original translators of the New World Translation, and then the work of the translators into Spanish. However, he made a statement that the Watcthower itself contradicts.
Anyways, his defense of the translation into English of no value here. The true meaning of my original post needs him to do a little thinking outside of the box. Most Jehovah's witnesses don't speak English, and the Watchtower is fully aware of that, as per the text in one of the images above. They are as true Jehovah's witnesses as you native speakers of English. But they have received a very poor translation, and the Watchtower knows so. What's more, the Watchtower meant it to be so. They have been lied to in this way as well.
I wonder if Goodspeed could have given an opinion on the translation of the Bible into Spanish. Or Swahili.
This leaves the door open to question even the translation into English. Maybe their reason for not revealing who did the translation is to prevent people from questioning his ability to translate. There are gifted individuals who don't need much formal schooling to translate, but, in any case, any translator should be willing to have his work checked and questioned by others. If the text can stand that questioning, then the translation is fine. The Watchtower knows that, and that is why they proofread their own translations.
It will be interesting for Wonderment to read a few more quotes from the same document I'm quoting.
I'm adding the bold text in all the quotes below:
23. THE TRANSLATOR’S RESPONSIBILITY: Serious
responsibility rests upon a translator, who must see that
what is published in the English is translated clearly and
exactly for the non-English edition. The translator
should get the true spirit and understanding of the
material and then make an accurate translation.
Quality should never be sacrificed for the sake of
production. You have noted the high quality of the lan-
guage used in the English Watchtower and Awake!
magazines. A translation should be of the same high
quality in grammar and in choice of words. Translations
of publications should be understandable and easy to
read. Above all, they should convey the truth as it is ex-
pressed in the original English. The translator is not the
author. He has no liberty to insert his own ideas, nor
is he authorized to summarize a paragraph and put it in
his own words.—Compare Luke 1:3, 4.
27. PERSONNEL: Translators must have an excellent
command of their own language. They also need a good
understanding of the language from which they are
translating. Although the translation is checked, the re-
sponsibility for what is finally printed rests with the
translator. Therefore, a translator must be trustworthy
and faithful. If the translation of a passage presents a
problem with regard to doctrine or policy, the Branch
Committee should be consulted. If the matter is not
resolved, it should be submitted to the Writing Commit-
tee for determination. If the translation is not made di-
rectly from English, it would be well for someone who
knows English to check the translation against the Eng-
lish for accuracy.
28. Because it is not always possible to convey the full
meaning, flavor, or nuance of the English original due to
translating from another language, it is preferable to
translate directly from English if at all possible. It is
therefore good to look for prospective translators among
persons who know English. The time constraints of si-
multaneous publication also recommend that translation
be done directly from the English text.
The Watchtower wants the translation to "convey the full meaning, flavor or nuance of the English original". It does not care much about "conveying the full meaning, flavor of nuance" of the original manuscripts.
Let me continue with the Branch Manual:
30. It would not be reasonable to expect to have a full
complement of experienced translators when starting to
translate the organization’s publications into a new
language. But work might start on tracts or brochures
with only two translators. They can check each other’s
work and also proofread the copy. As the workers gain
experience and additional translators are added to the
team, more work can be assigned if the need in the field
warrants it.
I wonder if Fred Franz and the others checked each other's work to agree on what was correct.
31. While the translator’s aptitude is important, a good
attitude is even more important. So a translator’s spiri-
tual qualifications cannot be overemphasized.
Younger brothers, though, do not have to be ministerial
servants to be considered for translation work. Where
possible, translators should not have weighty family re-
sponsibilities. Persons in full-time service are pre-
ferred.
32. The development of new translators (and proof-
readers) should receive ongoing attention. This is
especially important when publishing of dated material
begins. The aim should be to develop a translation team
that can support the work even when a member is away
or has to leave permanently.
33. There are a number of ways to find new transla-
tors. (1) Members of the Bethel family should be consid-
ered first, as well as Bethel applicants. (2) Potential
translators may be located among those who attend dis-
trict conventions. To this end, capable brothers can be
alerted to take note of those interested in Bethel service
who have a good knowledge of both their own language
and English. (3) Traveling overseers can be notified to
look for potential translators who have the qualifications
and the desire to serve at Bethel.
I added the bold text again. "good knowledge of both their own language and ENGLISH".
Also, see the bold below:
34. Prospective translators should be assigned some
English text to translate. The material should be repre-
sentative of the work that they would be doing as a new
translator. Candidates may use dictionaries and other
reference works while doing the test translation, but they
should not ask others to help them. Where possible,
their work should be evaluated by experienced transla-
tors. We should not expect candidates to manifest the
skills or breadth of knowledge of experienced translators.
Yet their test translation should indicate basic potential,
sufficient to warrant further effort, a potential to grow with
training and experience. Only if a person meets these
criteria should he be selected as a translator. Since all
new Bethelites are “tested as to fitness” during their first
year at Bethel, those called in to assist with transla-
tion should understand that they may be reassigned
to other work or be asked to leave Bethel if they do not
qualify as a translator.
35. When a new candidate is selected, an experienced
translator is assigned to train him if available. After
checking each article, the trainer should explain to the
new one the reasons for any changes. Discussions
with the new translator after each of his articles has
been checked are essential if he is to make progress.
37. The overseer of the translation department should
be a loyal, spiritual brother who takes a keen interest in
communicating and cooperating with the translation
team. He should make sure that translation, checking,
and proofreading procedures are followed and that
schedules are met. He needs to watch the quality and
quantity of the work, but he need not personally check all
translated material before it is released. The overseer
should keep the Branch Committee informed, so that the
department is neither overloaded with work, nor over-
staffed.
38. EQUIPMENT: Each translator should be equipped
with his own set of basic dictionaries and reference
works that are used frequently. Normally a translator
should have at his desk a copy of the English Reference
Bible, the standard vernacular Bible(s), the organization’s
standard English dictionary, a dictionary of English idi-
oms, an accurate and up-to-date English-vernacular dic-
tionary, and a grammar reference for the vernacular lan-
guage. The Translation Department and/or branch library
may contain other reference works less frequently con-
sulted.
Emphasis is on English again.
I mentioned the fact that Mr. Segalá i Estalella was a Catalonian. Well, the Watchtower has decided it needs to have publications in Catalonian. My speculation is that it needs to go with the flow: Since Catalonian is now widely used in Catalonia, the need has arisen to use that language. But the congregations are discouraged from using their own translations of the Watchtower. Here are the images of the PDF I have, which I'm not posting here because I don't know how to upload PDF's to this site:
I'm repeating some text here so you'll see it's the same document.
I will translate this letter if someone is interested. I am just using it here to prove my point. Do you think there are not any qualified scholars to translate the Bible and the publications into Catalonian? How is that being done? Wanna bet?
The Catholic Church is undertaking a translation of the Bible into Spanish. Here's the link:
http://noticiasdecristianos.blogspot.com/2011/01/sociedad-biblica-espanola-presenta.html
I would like to highlight this (the original Spanish can be found below):
"Also, with respect to the clarity of the translation of biblical texts, the member of the board of the Spanish Biblical Society pointed out that "all the current parameters of Spanish literature have been taken in consideration. All language resources available have been used, and the same is true of the broadest multiplicity of Spanish usage, which makes this version an excellent example of the diversity of the [Spanish] language and, therefore, its literary wealth. For translation, use has been made of the broadest vocabulary; the work was done with the resources available in current Spanish, in different genres and styles; and the enormous possibilities offered by the colloquial and the literary forms of the language have been put to work in service of this magnificent work".
One aspect to highlight is that, considering the particulars and diversity of the Spanish language, two versions of this translation were made: one for Spain, and one for Latin America.
Andavert also pointed out that "the translation team, whose members belong to several Christian persuasions in Spain and Latin America, have worked trying to be faithful to the source text, for the purpose of offering the best highly literary text possible, taking in consideration the needs of the Christian church, so that this will be a text of great literary standing for public worship, and also for private devotion and study".
Asimismo, sobre la claridad obtenida en la traducción del texto bíblico, el directivo de SBE señaló que “se han tenido en cuenta los parámetros actuales de la literatura en español. Se han utilizado todos los recursos disponibles de la lengua y la más amplia multiplicidad de usos del español haciendo de esta versión un exponente excelente de la diversidad del lenguaje y por ende de su riqueza literaria. Para traducir se ha recurrido a un amplísimo vocabulario; se ha operado con los recursos del español actual en sus diversos géneros y estilos; y las enormes posibilidades del lenguaje coloquial y literario han sido puestas al servicio de este magnífico trabajo”.
Un dato a resaltar es que, dadas las particularidades y diversidad de la lengua española, de esta traducción se han realizado dos versiones: una para España y otra para Latinoamérica.
Además Andavert indicó que “el equipo de traductores pertenecientes a diversas confesiones cristianas de España e Hispanoamérica han trabajado procurando ser fieles al texto fuente con el fin de ofrecer el mejor texto posible en un alto nivel literario, y teniendo en cuenta las necesidades de la Iglesia cristiana de modo que este sea un texto de gran dignidad literaria para el culto público así como para la devoción y el estudio privado”.
