THE RISE AND FALL OF AN IMMENSE IMAGE & THE TEN TOE DILEMMA?

by scotoma 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • scotoma
    scotoma

    THE RISE AND FALL OF AN IMMENSE IMAGE & THE TEN TOE DILEMMA?

    Readers of the Watchtower are familiar with the flip-flop phenomenon. A certain idea is given as "truth". Then the opposite is given as "truth". Finally, that idea is repudiated and there is a return to an earlier interpretation. In order to lay the groundwork for the obvious errors of interpretation the Watchtower makes on this part of Daniel we need to examine a classic flip-flop. By the way it should read flip-FLOP with the emphasis on theFLOP.

    1958 EXPLANATION OF THE IMAGE'S FEET: ??Your Will Be Done On EarthPage 24 ??"But WHAT OF THE TEN TOES in which the symbolic image terminated? This feature showed that at the time of the end of this symbolic image the remnant of the Roman or sixth world power would vie with the Anglo-American or seventh world power and that there would be other independent political governments associated with those competing powers. The number TEN BEING A BIBLICAL NUMBER SYMBOLIZING EARTHLY COMPLETENESS, THE TEN TOES PICTURE ALL SUCH COEXISTING POWERS AND GOVERNMENTS.??1978 EXPLANATION OF THE IMAGE'S FEET:

    Fast forward 20 years to 1978

    Watchtower 6/15/78 page 13 in the article "Human Governments Crushed by God's Kingdom" it? says

    "There does not appear to be any prophetic significance to the image's having ten toes. This is a natural human feature, just as the image has two arms, two legs, and so forth."

    Fast forward 21 years to 1999

    1999 EXPLANATION OF THE IMAGE'S FEET: ??Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy page 59 paragraph 27 The (b) question for that paragraph is ??"What is pictured by the ten toes of the image?" The answer?

    "The ten toes of the image represent all such coexisting powers and governments, for in the Bible the number ten at times signifies earthly completeness "

    Why are they hung up with the 10 toes? If you read the 2nd chapter of Daniel the word "ten" doesn't even appear. If the number 10 were really significant don't you think it would have been mentioned? In fact "number" is also lacking in reference to arms and legs. This is NOT an ?interpretation that is driven by Holy Spirit. It is a hodge-podge of mystical numerological ideas? that lead Jehovah's Witnesses astray. What a shame that they go through all the trouble of? presenting the same nonsense dressed up with nice pictures.

    Here is another screw up involving their interpretation of the image.

    How did they decide that the feet suddenly represent "kingdoms"? (special emphasis is placed on plurality). The head represented one kingdom -Babylon. Next Dan. 2:39 says "after you there will rise another? kingdom (singular) ... and another kingdom(singular) a third one of copper.. Dan 2:40 says "And as for the fourth kingdom (again singular). So then is there a change in this pattern when the fifth part of this image is described? Dan 2:41 says the "kingdom (singular) will prove to be divided.... the kingdom (singular) will partly prove to be strong..." Finally, plurality is used when kings (plural) are? mentioned in Daniel 2:44 when it speaks of the whole image being knocked down and crushed. "It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms (plural). Some may be tempted to say that this is referring to the 10 kingdom/toes, however verse 45 repeats the symbolic metals of the image ?indicating that the plurality is referring to the image as a whole. Clearly the clay/iron does not ?represent "many" kingdoms and certainly not "all" the kingdoms of the earth. There is nothing to indicate that the feet and toes are anything but a singular kingdom that has as one of its characteristics that it is loosely held together. Therefore the statement by the Watchtower that "the ten toes of the image represent all such coexisting powers and governments" based on the? idea that "in the Bible the number ten at times signifies earthly completeness" is absolutely false.? Although the number 10 may at "TIMES" represent "EARTHLY COMPLETENESS" they fail ?to show how the feet of the image necessarily represents one of those "times". So it appears the Danielbook is a flip and a flop back 30 years to their 1958 explanation. The bubbles are definitely out of this glass of champagne. And you can be sure the convention of 2011 isn’t going to fix this because Fred is Dead (Fred Franz). Apparently even though he is supposed to be in heaven directing the Watchtower from his majestic vantage point he remains incommunicado.

    But, it is still worthwhile to ponder over what "kingdom" the feet might represent. I’m not saying there is ANY explanation but you would hope that there would be some creative writer that could make this whole thing a little more coherent.

    Clearly the feet and toes ?represent the final world power on earth. In Daniel Chapter 11 the final power on earth is the King Of the North. The King of the South is not mentioned again after the King of the North storms against the King of the South in reaction to being pushed. In Revelation the final head of the Chapter 13 beast is wounded, revives, and destroys Babylon the Great. This revived wild beast is hurled alive into the lake of fire. We can sum up the characteristics of the final power on ?earth as follows.

    1. It will prove to be partly strong like iron and partly weak like moist clay. It will?not prove to be sticking together this one to that one because they will lack homogeneity due to being mixed with the offspring of mankind.

    2. It will achieve its power over the whole earth after it recovers from what appears as a death-blow. After it revives people will wonder admiringly at its ability to still do battle.

    3. It is significantly a NORTHERN kingdom.

    Does this not describe Russia? Is it just a coincidence that Russia, the largest country in the world, with three-quarters of its land mass north of the 50th parallel should also be described with the following words:

    "Within one week's time, in the summer of 1991, the 74-year-old Union of Soviet Socialist? Republics became a finished part of history." _ Comptons On-Line Encyclopedia

    What about the clay & iron feature of the final empire? Does that fit USSR/RUSSIA? We can look again to the Compton's On-Line Encyclopedia for a description of Russia's so-called "Nationalities Problem".

    "In an age of nationalism every nationality aspires to independent statehood. The non-Russian peoples were appeased with a hierarchy of administrative units. Fifteen were granted a soviet socialist republic status that, according to the constitution, most resembled that of a sovereign nation-state. Twenty others possessed the status of an autonomous soviet socialist republic,? which provided some cultural autonomy. Still others were recognized as autonomous oblasts or autonomous okrugs, designations that meant little beyond an official acknowledgement of ethnic identity... The government became less and less ethnically representative as a result of the slow? demographic growth of the ethnic Russians and the rapid growth of the other ethnic groups, especially the Muslim groups in Central Asia and elsewhere."

    Once you sweep away Watchtower misunderstandings you end up with an explanation that is? eerily coherent.

    OK Watchtower writers play with this a little. You should be able to come up with something better than a flip, a flop, and then another flip. Or maybe you can’t tell a flop when you see one.

  • GOrwell
    GOrwell

    I'm not even sure if you can call the 'new light' a flip or a flop. And I'm not even sure what it is called when it has 'flipped' back to nothing.

    In the past, the WTS has had an obsessive need to explain and everything in the Bible. Being able to have answers for everything means they must have God's backing, even if they're wrong about it. As others have mentioned, maybe this is just Step 1 in the new light, because of the Camping fiasco. Step 2 will the actual revealing of what they think the 10 toes now means. That'll probably happen in 2 or 3 years.

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Why has the WTB&TS so carefully avoided a comprehensive examination of the calouses on these feet? And the toenails- what is meant by the way in which they are shaped? Does the foot posess no aroma?

    Seekers of truth want to know.

  • therevealer
    therevealer

    Would the real king of the north please stand up. remember that old game show, the witnesses could use that format. would the real big toe please stand up, and so on.

  • TheLoveDoctor
    TheLoveDoctor

    Listen to the thread on the convention with audio on the ten toes and also the last talk on sunday about overlapping generation it just so much shit it is so obvious to me now.

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    The Watchtower Society had to put a new prophetic spin on the 'ten toes' because the kingdoms mentioned in Daniel's day were either extinct or no longer functioning as world powers by the Twentieth century...

    Bronze-Age Middle-Eastern regional prophecy just doesn't fit the modern world without a LOT of tweaks and creative interpretations...

    Zid

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    Oh, and just to let you know...

    During the period of paranoia over Communism in America, Russia WAS considered to be the "King of the North" as mentioned in Daniel's prophecy. However, when the Berlin Wall fell in the 1980s, and further softening of the Russian empire showed it to be more of a 'paper tiger' than a real threat, the Watchtower Society quietly let that so-called "fulfillment" of Daniel slide into the archives.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Anything is everything. Everything is anything.

    The idea is to use world powers to scare the JW's into thinking NOW and not "later".

    Hal Lindsey in THE LATE GREAT PLANET EARTH used the "Russia" interpretation. Then, Russia fell. It became IRAQ and Sadaam Hussein. He was hanged.

    Lindsey just keeps on keeping on. So does the Watchtower.

    It is a kind of guessing game. The rule is this: interpret Daniel any way you can to make current situations apply.

    When it doesn't prove true they simply revise, revise, revise.

    New Light, New Light, New light.

    The kind of light that, unlike Watchtower leaders, gets brighter and brighter.

  • Billy the Ex-Bethelite
    Billy the Ex-Bethelite

    Perhaps the ten toes should represent the nearly 2000 years that have elapsed since any rational person might believed that the fraudulent book of Daniel was somehow valid prophetically.

  • ziddina
    ziddina

    LOL @ Billy!!!

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