by Mr. Falcon 99 Replies latest watchtower bible
I didn't read all the comments here, just the introductory post, so I apologize if this is a repeat.
I recommend Carl Oloff Johnson's book "Sign of the Last Days".
All of the signs Jesus mentioned in Matthew chapter 24 are actually much better today than they have been in hundreds of years. Except earthquakes - these have basically remained fairly constant for hundreds of years.
It's a very enlightening book. One of the best ones I read after leaving.
-MF31-
MR. FALCON. You are looking for the right things, but asking the wrong questions based upon misconceptions.
Another good example: "The love of the greater number would cool off."
The WTS and perhaps a general reading of anyone might presume this "greater number" represents the world population and a general decrease in decent humanity. That's how the WTS presents it, linking it with increased crimes etc. But that is NOT what this means.
If there is a "greater number" then there is a "lesser number." There are two groups of "holy ones" during this time. The Christian "holy ones" under covenant, meaning Jehovah's witnesses, and the natural Jews. The "greater number" is always a reference to the natural Jews. The implied "lesser number" is a reference to Jehovah's witnesses.
JEWS AND JWS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnTy8_EhE0YSo the actual fulfillment of "the love of the greater number would cool off" during this time, is a direct reference to the increase in anti-semitism! That is, from the beginning of the first sign of this "last generation," which is a world war (i.e. nation vs nation, kingdom vs kingdom), the love of Jews, the "greater number" would cool off and thus Jews would be hated more and antisemitism would increase. Which it did. It was a critical component in the context of the Holocaust.
So having the correct interpretation of things makes all the difference in the world as far as understanding the fulfillment.
So I must emphasize to you, again, two things, if I may:
1. The Bible is true and its prophecies are fulfilled precisely and completely. But you must understand the true application.
2. The WTS is apostate and clueless about these details and you must look and study the scriptures afresh, hopefully not influenced by preconceived concepts of the WTS or others; case in point, that the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24 is Armageddon--it is not, it is a reference to the Holocaust and it is completely over before the messiah arrives and before the State of Israel is set up. Hopefully, you can see that with a closer look at the chain of events as presented in the Bible. Think about it. The days were cut short or else no flesh of the holy ones would be saved. Who are the holy ones here? And does Jehovah get so carried away with destroying the wicked that he almost accidentally wipes out all the righteous "holy ones" as well? Even so, the suggestion is that he does wipe out most of them, but stops short of wiping them all out along with the wicked? Is that what we are to think of Armageddon? No. Instead, when the "holy ones" are the natural Jews, the focus of this "desolation" by Gog of Magog, we understand the are the target of destruction. So yes, 2/3rds of the "holy ones" were always prophesied to be exterminated in this great tribulation, this one-time event that never happened before. And didn't the Holocaust shock the world. Doesn't it still shock us into disbelief? Wouldn't such an incredibly horried event, focussed on God's chosen people, not be mentioned as part of the signs of the las generation? Well of course! And it is! It is the "great tribulation". The great tribulation is the HOLOCAUST, a very critical event and sign leading up to the second coming.
So yes, some of us wonder how the Bible is fulfilled and we want answers, but we must go to the Bible directly and see what it is really telling us. And we need to look at ALL the references. Who are the "holy ones" and why are they being destroyed? Who are the "eagles" who surround the messiah. Why is the messiah being called a "carcass"? Why does the "sign of the son of man" cause those seeing it to beat themselves in lamentation? Why all the sadness and heartache in connection with the messiah? There are answers to all these questions now if we ask them. If you think the "end of the system of things" means Armageddon, things will not work out or make sense. But if you know the "end of the system of things" for the Jews Jesus was talking to meant the "end of the appointed times of the nations" or the "end of the gentile times" then it makes sense, and you know the "end" occurred on November 30, 1947. Then the Bible becomes an amazing book of fulfilled prophecy and not a failed book of doomsday naysayers as so many "scorners" claim to accommodate their own comfort level.
So, just in case you want to know the official fulfillments, you can ask me. I'm the official prophet at this point. That is, if you are truly interested in the truth; I find many are not. Many are here just to find support, emotional or otherwise, to their own beliefs, whether they are consistent with the Bible or not.
Thanks, again, for stimulating thoughts on this topic.
LS
When a bad seed is placed in the ground only bad things will grow from it.
The WTS. never produced anything valid right from its very beginning, all the dates this organization ever produced were done
wholly on weak speculation with the intention of commercial appeal toward their own published works.
Nothing has changed in this respect for a hundred years up til today.
MR. FALCON. ANOTHER VERY IMPORTANT POINT:
There are TWO tribulations in the Bible. One that occurs before the messiah arrives, which is the Holocaust. The other which is linked with Armageddon which occurs after the messiah arrives and has sealed the elect and after Satan has been active in the earth for a "short while" after being kicked out of heaven, preparing the nations for "Armageddon."
So. If you don't understand this and you try to combine the Holocaust with Armageddon, as do JWs, then the scriptures are not going to work out or make sense.
So you need to realize there are two "tribulations" an not confuse them as many do.
Another point is CHRONOLOGY. The second coming has to fulfill several prophetic patterns, including the "1335 days", the "70th week" and the "7 times." The great tribulation of Matthew 24 is also bound by chronology. It begins with the "cut off" after 62 weeks and continues for 1 week, though the actual days of tribulation were cut short. This is followed by a jubile period of 7 weeks, or 49 years. So in the context of the two tribulations, the Holocaust must occur between 1940-1947. This is dated and matched to chronology. But Armageddon is not dated in the Bible. This is totally within the jurisdiction of Jehovah. It is his personal choice to decide when enough is enough and close to the door of life, which is not an anxious event; in fact, just the opposite. The Bible lets us know it will be at the very last minute. It will seem "delayed" but it will not be "late."
How can something be "delayed" but not be "late"? Well one way is if the tribulation is thought to last for an extended period of time, say 15 months. We might expect the tribulation to begin and continue for 15 months based on a certain date. But as with the first tribulation, the Holocaust, which ended early in 1945 instead of 1947, if the length of the tribulation is cut short in the beginning, the it would seem "delayed" but it would not be late if it still ends on time.
That is, in practical application here. Let's say we expect the millennium to begin on December 21, 2012, preceeded by 15 months rule by the UN which we consider would begin with the great tribulation against Babylon the Great. From the end of December 2012 to the end of December 2011 is one full year, 12 months. 3 more months to make 15 months would begin in October 2011. So we might expect the tribulation to begin by October 2011. But what if Jehovah, out of mercy, decides to "cut short the days" and limit the tribulation to say just 12 months? Then the tribulation would seem delayed, but as long as it finished up on time in late December, then it would not be "late" with respect to the appointed time Jehovah gave it. So a delayed start date but an on-time end date could be characterized as seeming delayed but not late; the end is on time but the beginning is delayed, etc.
But still, it should be clear that perhaps the elect are the ones who will understand all these things wheras the world at large would not. This fits the scenario of the 5 foolish and 5 wise virgins. The 10 virgins start out together as a group on their way to the wedding feast. They both experience the same thing; they both nod and their lamps grow dim at one point. This represents spiritual darkness of understanding kingdm detail. Then suddenly the bridegroom arrives and they wake up and get their lamps in order, but only the wise virgins have brought extra oil. The foolish virgins who did not bring extra oil want the wise virgins to share, but the wise virgins didn't come all this way to miss out, so they don't share any of their oil. This separates the two groups now. The wise go to meet the bridegroom but the foolish have to go find oil then return. As it turns out, the foolish return too late to get in. But it underscores that at one point true understanding is quite selective. Even Christ says he puts "new wine into new wineskins" and not into "old wineskins." So even within the kingdom there will be those with critical understanding and others with a general understanding in the context of old beliefs. That's because the hard new reality of fulfillment is too much for them.
So maybe sometimes it is not about what you know or can find out or answer, but simply whether you are asking or not. Some people don't know anything accurately, but they are not asking, either. Some never find the answers but at least they are inquiring. The extra oil of he wise virgins shows they have a more focussed invested interest in things Biblical and so that is rewarded to them. The foolish virgins lack this focusor concern and it costs them.
Now they eventually get their lamps burning. Like now I'm explaining the details of how these prophecies work. At some point it would be clear this must be the correct understanding. But it's late in the day now. The empty kingdom seats have been filled. So we are approaching, unfortunately the time of bitterness, where the "weeping and the gnashing of the teeth" will occur by those who believe and wanted to be in the kingdom and even were invited, but they were not paying attention, or were deceived into following the apostate WTS leaders, trusting that as long as they were following them closely, that guaranteed their salvation. But that is not true. The Bible clearly shows the WTS, though the temple covenant sect, the one that preaches the "good news", the one that comes out of the "earth" would become apostate. So that is fulfilled now and we have all the evidence now that the WTS has been cut off and are now in spiritual darkness.
So I suppose the JIOR elect will always have more complete understanding than others. It was just set up that way.
LS
Larsinger wrote:
ANOTHER SPECIFIC, THE GREAT TRIBULATION: Now, having noted that, you must pay close attention to what the Bible says. Matthew 24:29 clearly notes one of the signs leading up to the second coming what this tribulation, a time that never occurred before nor would occur again. But it notes this tribulation was completely over before the "sign of the son of man" would appear in the heavens, declaring the messiah had arrived. VERY IMPORTANT to focus on this. That is, this specific, one-time tribulation associated with the end times is completely ended before the second coming, keeping in mind the second coming does not occur before the State of Israel is reborn:
My brother claims this happened in 1948..(first tribulation)..He has discovered this in his own personal bible reading. He also told me that the "signs" would happen all at once..instead of at different times..earthquakes and all the other signs would all be close together in other words. That is the supposed difference in the signs in the last days .
He always wants to get involved in bible conversations with me and I am burned out on them..had enough of that stuff to last a lifetime..
Snoozy, not looking for any signs..
MR. FALCON- Good thread. I think what you may be trying to say is that yes- there are problems today, however there have been bad problems throughout history as well. I use this debate tactic with my JW parens when they try to say " it's getting worse and worse ! ". Then I mention how many people died in the Inquisitions, Native Americans being killed and chased off their lands in the 1800's. Or the hundreds of thousands of Civil War soldiers lost in death. Also no modern medicine was available- people lived much shorter lives on the average in centuries past.
So for Witnesses, Camping, or any OTHER evangelical cult to claim the end is close is a bunch of hogwash. Religious cults have been saying that for thousands of years - and they'll probably continue saying it - doesn't mean it will happen
When your blood pressure falls to a very low level and your breathing slows and finally stops, that's a sign you are in your "last days."
I hope I am not repeating anything here but I think alot of what was written in the NT was written for those in the immediate time after Jesus death. If you look at the apostle John's writings, evidently he believed that Jesus return was so imminent that he said it was the "last hour" ..
I know there is some debate as to when Revelation was written another time where John held to the nearness of Jesus return. Some hold the view that it was written towards the end of the first century , others hold that it was written before the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. To my mind (though still subject to change me thinks!) Revelation makes a lot more sense if it was written prior to Jerusalem's destruction. This also means to me that much of what was written has no implication for today. This I feel is big point since when I first became a JW as a teenager one of the things that absolutely scared the bejesus out of me was reading Revelation.. It's hard not be terrified reading Revelation as a literal prophecy as to what would happen to those on the earth!
Regarding the preaching work of the Kingdom , I think it was Paul or Peter who wrote that preaching work was accomplished in the first centur y( that is to the earth as they knew it) .
Also a comment on where you were born affecting your salvation. This was the first argument that really got me to see through the witnesses false reasonings. If God was really backing the Witnesses why wasn't there the same exponential growth that was experienced in countries with a Christian background ? I find it impossible to believe that there are so few "pure hearted" ones in the "pagan" lands . What i do believe though is that it is very difficult to prosteltyze to those who entire world view is alien to that of the Christian one.
Cheers!
I'M SO GLAD I HAVE THE TRUTH. SO GLAD.
I think the discussions about the signs of the last days is a great topic. But the fact is, it is not discussed in the context of BIBLE CHRONOLOGY. Bible chronology dates the "great tribulation",which was the Holocaust between 1940-1947, that is, after 62 weeks. It dates the 2nd coming 45 years after the "end" of the gentile times, which ended on November 30, 1947.
So while it is interesting to compare all the things happening to what the Bible prophesied, there is zero flexibility about when the 2nd coming is to occur, without or without attendant signs.
So I think we can graduate to the point of understanding the sign in relation to the "fixed dates" which would be the 70th jubilee beginning in 1947 and ending the 1290 days, the 1335 days fulfilling the 2nd coming in 1992. The "7 times" prophecy following Biblical dating for the fall of Jerusalem in 529 BCE also dating 2nd coming in 1992, and the 2nd coming fulfilling the 70th week. Ignoring CHRONOLOGY means you have flexibility in interpretation. Once you strictly apply the chronology, though, it limits interpretation.
Plus, some of this has to be sheer DENIAL. For instance, it doesn't take long to discover that Xerxes faked his own death with the help of Themistocles and claimed that Artaxerxes was his own son. I just made that statemen and nobody ever bothers to contradict it. The pharaoh of the Exodus is clearly Akhenaten who converted to monotheism after the 10 plagues; how obvious can yu get. But you don't get that from modern scholars.
So Satan's propaganda machine goes deep, using the academic world to promote a false reality. But part of this program is train people not to think for themselves or not to be curious past what the "experts" are telling you. Few want to investigate anything that disturbs their comfort level. Thus you have what the Bible prophesied, many who are "always taking in knowledge, but never coming to an accurate knowledge of the truth."
In the meantime, Jehovah blinds the minds of the unbelievers, making it difficult for them to respond to truth and reality, even if explained to them in detail:
ACTS 13:41 ‘Behold it, YOU scorners, and wonder at it, and vanish away, because I am working a work in YOUR days, a work that YOU will by no means believe even if anyone relates it to YOU in detail.’"
So it looks like that is the way it's going to be. Some with all the answers and some with continuing doubts or comfortable presumptions. Some love the darkness and hate the light.
LS
