607 wrong using ONLY the bible (and some common sense)

by Witness My Fury 492 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @AnnOMaly:

    And yet still nothing that could lead us to the conclusion that Nebuchadnezzar made Jehoiakim his vassal in Jehoiakim's 8th year.

    (@djeggnog:)

    Why do you say this? Jehoiakim had been a vassal of Egypt before the king of Egypt was defeated in 625 BC. This would have been the eighth year of Jehoiakim's rulership and would also have been the beginning of Jehoiakim's three-year vassalage for Babylon.

    625 [BC] is now Jehoiakim's 8th year of rulership??? Make your mind up.

    Either read what I wrote in response to one of your posts, and even emphasized again, or don't read what I wrote at all; your choice. You have isolated a fragment of what I posted to you from a previous post to make it say something I wasn't really saying at all, in view of the fact that I emphasized and even underlined in my previous post the fact that the defeat of the Pharaoh by Nebuchadnezzar occurred in 625 BC say at all. The year 625 BC is the year when the king of Egypt was defeated by Nebuchadnezzar, but Jehoiakim's vassalage for the king of Babylon occurred in 620 BC; the year 620 BC was Jehoiakim's eighth year. For your convenience, what follows is the exchange to which I refer that you evidently ignored:

    (@AnnOMaly:)

    Where in the Bible do you get that Jehoiakim became Babylon's vassal in his 8th year?

    (@djeggnog:)

    My answer is based on 2 Kings 24:1, which I did not quote in my previous response:

    "In his days Neb·u·chad·nez´zar the king of Babylon came up, and so Je·hoi´a·kim became his servant for three years. However, he turned back and rebelled against him."

    I would ask that you not ignore this time this portion of my response to your question as to 'where in the Bible do I learn that Jehoiakim became Babylon's vassal in his 8th year.'

    Just as I had written in my previous message in response to your question, we learn upon reading Jeremiah 46:2 that "it was during the fourth year of the reign of King Jehoiakim's reign that the king of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar (Nebuchadrezzar), was victorious over the king of Egypt, Pharaoh Necho; this was in the year 625 BC.

    "The next year, in 624 BC, Nebuchadnezzar officially ascended to the throne following his father's death, Nebuchadnezzar's first regnal year, which was his second accession year, and in his fifth regnal year as king, Nebuchadnezzar made Jehoiakim his vassal king; this was during Jehoiakim's eighth year in 620 BC. (2 Kings 24:1) However, Jehoiakim's rebellion some three years later -- that would be the years 620 BC, 619 BC and 618 BC -- resulted in both Jerusalem being besieged by Babylon and in Jehoiakim's death in 618 BC, so that his son, Jehoiachin, then became Babylon's vassal king during Nebuchadnezzar's seventh regnal year until Jehoiachin's vassalage ended after about three months in 617 BC. (2 Kings 24:11, 12)"

    @AnnOMaly:

    Please pay attention. There is no mention made in 2 Kings 24:1 of what year in Jehoiakim's reign Nebuchadnezzar made him his vassal. 2 Kings 24:1 does not support your claim that it was his 8th year. Do you understand?

    (@djeggnog:)

    ... as to Jehoiakim's vassalage to Babylon, I made the following statement in this thread --Now the first time that Nebuchadnezzar had besieged Jerusalem was in 620 BC during Jehoiakim's third year of his vassal kingship to Babylon over Judah. (Daniel 1:1)

    -- and note that in my statement I cite Daniel 1:1 as support for my statement, which states:

    "In the third year of the kingship of Je·hoi'a·kim the king of Judah, Neb·u·chad·nez'zar the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and proceeded to lay siege to it."

    This does not support your statement that Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in Jehoiakim's 3rd year of vassalage - this is a classic example of you not believing the Bible's testimony. It states, very plainly, that Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in Jehoiakim's 3rd year of kingship. Using WTS time, this would date the siege to 625/624.

    Why not? If Jehoiakim was in his eighth year of rulership as king of Judah in 620 BC when he began his three-year vassalage for Babylon, and Jehoiakim was dead after having served some three years of vassalage for Babylon in 618 BC (620 BC - 618 BC is three years) in which year Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem, then "the third year" of Jehoiakim's kingship to which reference is made at Daniel 1:1 would be Jehoiakim's eleventh year (8 years + 3 years), and it was in this "third year of the kingship of Jehoiakim" that "the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and proceeded to lay siege to it." Jehoiakim's son, Jehoiachin's three-month vassalage for Babylon began "in the third year" of his father, Jehoiakim's vassalage to Babylon, and Jehoiachin's vassalage ended in 617 BC.

    You've mentioned three things in your post -- "red herrings, misinformation and ad hominem" -- and while I've not guilty of dispensing any of these, I believe you would actually understand what it is I have been saying to you here were you to stop reading more into what I've written here than I have written. I'm telling you here that when you read Daniel 1:1 and come away from reading it thinking that reference to "the third year of the kingship of Jehoiakim" refers to anything other than Jehoiakim's vassalage to Babylon, then you do not understand what Daniel is saying in this verse. Daniel 1:1 refers to Jehoiakim's vassalage to Babylon, but Jehoiakim ruled as king over Judah for some eleven years, not just for three years.

    To understand Daniel 1:1, one must interpret the verse as I have done here. You choose to read Daniel 1:1 literally, and that's fine, but were you guided by holy spirit, it wouldn't permit you to read this verse literally.

    @djeggnog

  • thetrueone
    thetrueone

    Jehoiakim ( Hebrew ??????????? "he whom Jehovah has set up", also sometimes spelled Jehoikim ( Greek : Ιωακιμ ; Latin : Joakim ), c. 635-597 BC, was a king of Judah . He was the second son of king Josiah by Zebidah the daughter of Pedaiah of Rumah. [1] His birth name was Eliakim (?????????? Greek : Ελιακιμ ; Latin : Eliakim ).

    On Josiah's death, Jehoiakim's younger brother Jehoahaz (or Shallum) was proclaimed king, but after three months pharaohNecho II deposed him and replaced him with the eldest son, Eliakim, [2] who adopted the name Jehoiakim and became king at the age of twenty-five. [1] Jehoahaz died in exile in Egypt. [3]

    Jehoiakim was twenty-five years old when he became king, and reigned for eleven years to 598 BC [1] [4] and was succeeded by his son Jeconiah , (also known as Jehoiachin), who reigned for only three months. [5] [6]

    [ edit ] Relations with regional powers

    Jehoiakim was installed as king of Judah by pharaohNecho II in 608 BC, who deposed his younger brother Jehoahaz after a reign of only three months and took him to Egypt, where he died. [2] Jehoiakim ruled originally as a vassal of the Egyptians, paying a heavy tribute. To raise the money he "taxed the land and exacted the silver and gold from the people of the land according to their assessments." [7]

    However, when the Egyptians were defeated by the Babylonians at Carchemish in 605 BC, Jehoiakim changed allegiances, paying tribute to Nebuchadrezzar II of Babylon.

    After three years, with the Egyptians and Babylonians still at war, he switched back to the Egyptians and ceased paying the tribute to Babylon. In 599 BC, Nebuchadnezzar II invaded Judah and laid siege to Jerusalem . In 598 BC, Jehoiakim died [4] and his body was thrown out of the walls. [8] He was succeeded by his son Jeconiah (also known as Jehoiachin). Jerusalem fell within three months. [5] [6] Jeconiah was deposed by Nebuchadnezzar, who installed Zedekiah , Jehoiakim's elder brother, in his place. Jeconiah, his household, and many of the elite and craftsmen of Judah were exiled to Babylon . [9] while Zedekiah was compelled to pay tribute, and continued to be king of the devastated kingdom.

    According to the Babylonian Chronicles , [10] Jerusalem eventually fell on 2 Adar (March 16) 597 BC . The Chronicles state:

    In the seventh month (of Nebuchadnezzar-599 BC.) in the month Chislev (Nov/Dec) the king of Babylon assembled his army, and after he had invaded the land of Hatti (Syria/Palestine) he laid siege to the city of Judah. On the second day of the month of Adar (16 March) he conquered the city and took the king (Jeconiah) prisoner. He installed in his place a king (Zedekiah) of his own choice, and after he had received rich tribute, he sent (them) forth to Babylon. [11]

    [ edit ] History

    Jehoiakim is remembered for burning the manuscript of one of the prophecies of Jeremiah . [12] Jeremiah had criticised the king's policies, insisting on repentance and strict adherence to the law. Another prophet, Uriah ben Shemaiah , proclaimed a similar message and was executed on the orders of the king. Jeremiah was spared from this fate, perhaps because he was well-connected. [13]

    Jehoiakim House of David
    Regnal titles
    Preceded by
    Jehoahaz
    King of Judah
    609–598 BC
    Succeeded by
    Jeconiah
  • Farkel
    Farkel

    I won't even dare bring up (yet again) what I wrote about that subject and demolished it in just a few short paragraphs because, obviously idiots need to see lots of verbose bullshit. Morons and idiots need to debate endlessly about this subject, but rational people can trash the 607 horshshit in just a few paragraphs, using ONLY the Bible.

    Let the morons and idiots rock on!

    Farkel

  • Alwayshere
    Alwayshere

    The best way to prove to a JW they are wrong on 607 is

    to use Zechariah chapter 7, verses 1-5. It plainly says in

    the Fourth year of King Darius (518) some were wanting to

    know if they should continue weeping in the 5th and 7th

    and ask how many years they had been doing this and

    the answer was 70 years. Their own Bible shows they were weeping

    because King Neb. had burned the Temple and killed the man, King Neb.

    made Governor. Now if you start with when they say Jerusalem

    was desolated, 607as 1 year down to 518 =90 years. now use 587 as 1 year and down to 518 =70 years.

    JUST LIKE THE bIBLE SAYS.

  • saltyoldlady
    saltyoldlady

    Alwayshere - Good Work! That's really all that needs to be said.

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    Let the morons and idiots rock on!

    Hey, watch it, Farkel! The only reasons I've been giving him time is to get the measure of the man, as I've never tangled with him before, and to see how he reacts to the biblical evidence presented to him that demonstrate his claims are pulled from his (or the WTS') ... uh ... imagination. Besides, I like talking about this subject, as you know.

  • Dutch-scientist
    Dutch-scientist

    beacuse of forbidding high education as JW you will always have this topic.

    For those who want to study this material need to know as basic; which empires where involved and the ruling kings, when they started and ended. try to understand the downfall of an empire. who where the allies in a battle.

    If you do like this for Egypt, Neo-Assyria, Babylon and Judah you find key dates which match with the Bible. The mayor point is that is not support any time frame what the WTS try to tell.

    The only date what the WTS need to be align is 539BC for their own Theory with full of crap.

    How we come with the date 539BC? Or which conditions need to be set to achief that the kingdom of Babylon was ended in 539BC?

  • AnnOMaly
    AnnOMaly

    You have isolated a fragment of what I posted to you from a previous post to make it say something I wasn't really saying at all ...

    I didn't 'make it' do anything. If you didn't really mean it the way it was written, try writing more precisely. Given your past blunders and mix-ups in more of the knee-jerk responses you gave, I had to double-check.

    You left this hanging, unanswered:

    Please pay attention. There is no mention made in 2 Kings 24:1 of what year in Jehoiakim's reign Nebuchadnezzar made him his vassal. 2 Kings 24:1 does not support your claim that it was his 8th year. Do you understand?

    Do you understand? Do you agree?

    Incidentally, have you checked the cross-references to 2 Chron. 36:21 yet and seen where Leviticus fits in? You've researched this at least, yes?

    Why not? If Jehoiakim was in his eighth year of rulership as king of Judah in 620 BC when he began his three-year vassalage for Babylon, and Jehoiakim was dead after having served some three years of vassalage for Babylon in 618 BC (620 BC - 618 BC is three years) in which year Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem, then "the third year" of Jehoiakim's kingship to which reference is made at Daniel 1:1 would be Jehoiakim's eleventh year (8 years + 3 years), and it was in this "third year of the kingship of Jehoiakim" that "the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and proceeded to lay siege to it." Jehoiakim's son, Jehoiachin's three-month vassalage for Babylon began "in the third year" of his father, Jehoiakim's vassalage to Babylon, and Jehoiachin's vassalage ended in 617 BC.

    Repeating what has already been rebutted won't make your statements any truer, you know. I've already shown you that there is no biblical support for your premise. Daniel mentions 'kingship' and you read 'vassalage.' Daniel says 'third year' and you interpret that as '11th year of kingship' or '3rd year of vassalage.' Can't you see how you are distorting the text? There is no basis for it - there really isn't.

    Your interpretation and timing of events mean that Jehoiakim voluntarily, without duress, came under the heavy Babylonian yoke and was happy to give away a substantial chunk of his country's taxes before Nebuchadnezzar was even a threat to him. I guess the deal at 2 Ki. 24:1 was the result of a social visit? (Compare Jer. 36:9, 10, 27-31, noting the year and circumstances. Do the math.)

    You've mentioned three things in your post -- "red herrings, misinformation and ad hominem" -- and while I've not guilty of dispensing any of these, ...

    Readers can judge for themselves. It's documented. I speak as I find.

    Daniel 1:1 refers to Jehoiakim's vassalage to Babylon, but Jehoiakim ruled as king over Judah for some eleven years, not just for three years.

    Another red herring. That Jehoiakim reigned for 11 years is not in dispute. But you still haven't established that Dan. 1:1 refers to what you allege it refers to, effectively saying instead, 'it just does, get over it.'

    To understand Daniel 1:1, one must interpret the verse as I have done here. You choose to read Daniel 1:1 literally, and that's fine, but were you guided by holy spirit, it wouldn't permit you to read this verse literally.

    ROFL! You have to be kidding me! This isn't prophecy where there are symbols and codes and metaphors to decipher. It's a straight, easy-to-understand narrative. And you'd do well not to attribute your twisted reasonings to the holy spirit! (Lord have mercy!)

  • bohm
    bohm

    Ann, your awsome. I really enjoy this thread.

  • Aussie Oz
    Aussie Oz

    marked for a return visit...

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