In general, what is the ethically correct response if a minor tells you someone is molesting him/her?

by InterestedOne 84 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    In Canada (can't speak for other places)

    If anyone is working in a professional capacity (and elders would be included in this since they want to claim clergy privilege) they are required by law to call the police and social services. If they call the police then the police will call social services and vice versa. This includes teachers, coaches, clergy, day care workers, camp counselors even if they are minors or anyone else who works in some way with kids. They are all legally required to report although the camp counselors might only report it to their counselors who would report for them. Those who do not report can be in serious trouble with the law.

    If you are a non-professional, a friend's parent, a neighbor or other person who learns of the abuse or even suspects abuse they are ethicall required to report the abuse. While they are not in trouble with the law it will not be well looked on if they knew and did nothing. It isn't necessarily a legal issue if they did not report.

  • sir82
    sir82

    Speaking generally, not necessarily related to JWs....

    Is there any ethical obligation to get the child's consent before reporting?

    Obviously, if it's a 3 year old, you report to the authorities. A 3 year old can't make that sort of decision.

    But what if it's a 15 or 16 year old? What if it's a 15 year old confiding an incident that happened 5 years ago? Or 10 years ago?

    Or what if it's an adult confiding an incident from 20 or 30 years ago?

    I'm interested in the ethical / moral aspect, not necessarily the legal.

  • InterestedOne
    InterestedOne

    Lady Lee - I see. I'm glad to hear that elders, because they want clergy privilege, will abide by the law that goes along with that privilege. I'm also glad that certain countries have such laws in place. I guess the elders do what the WT legal dept advises them based on the laws in their area. That makes sense. I would hope, if there are no laws in their area that require reporting, that the elder isn't being taught, even indirectly through some element of doctrine, not to report, like for some religious "us & them" reason. I sincerely hope there is no element of JW doctrine that would lead an elder to conclude that he should not report out of loyalty or something.

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Is there any ethical obligation to get the child's consent before reporting?

    No Anyone can report even suspicions without notifying the child. The goal is to protect the child and put their needs first.

    Obviously, if it's a 3 year old, you report to the authorities. A 3 year old can't make that sort of decision.

    If the abuser is a parent no child can make that decision due to the relationship between parent and child. Few children want to see their parent go to jail or see themselves placed into foster care. Many children will deny the abuse so they can live with their family. That is why it is all the more reason to report.

    But what if it's a 15 or 16 year old? What if it's a 15 year old confiding an incident that happened 5 years ago? Or 10 years ago?

    Both my daughters had friends who disclosed abuse in their homes. They both helped their friends call social services to get some help for the kids. In one case the child was a pre-teen and in the other she was a teen. In the case of the teen the abuse that involved touching had stopped but not the fear of it happening again and there were clear threats that it could happen again. Both my daughters did the right thing to help their friends. They have never regretted their decisions. Somehow I doubt they would feel as good if they had said and done nothing and the abuse continued.

    Or what if it's an adult confiding an incident from 20 or 30 years ago?

    This is a bit different. The person confiding the abuse is presumably no longer in danger (although I do know of cases where it continued well into adulthood). But generally if an adult confides that they were abused the biggest concern would be what access does the abuser still have to children and the risk that he (or she) has continued to find new victims. If there are suspicions that the abuse has simply moved on to new victims then it becomes necessary to do what you can to protect the victims.

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Lady Lee - I see. I'm glad to hear that elders, because they want clergy privilege, will abide by the law that goes along with that privilege.

    Well that is what they are supposed to do. But the WTS is pretty good at changing the rules when it suits them. The thing is this:

    When the victim goes to an adult and discloses abuse clergy privilege does not apply. It only would apply if the abuser went to the clergy and confessed. Clergy privilege has nothing to do whatsoever with a victims' disclosure. So whenever a victim discloses abuse they should by all legal reason contact the authorities to protect the child. Now when it comes to the elders they will erroneously claim clergy privilege.

    Elders are to call Bethel first to find out if they should report the abuse accusation. Bethel legal will then let them know if they should report. In the US it seems to depend on what state this happens in. We know from many experiences that if the accused is not a Witness or associated with the Witnesses they will be told to report. But if the accused is a JW they will most likely not tell them to report.

    Now the next piece of this goes like this:

    The victim or family will be told they can go to the authorities if they are told that much. But they will also be told they have a responsibility to:

    • not bring shame on Jehovah's name or on the Cong
    • they should not do anything that would cause divisions where people would have to make a choice between the accused and the victim
    • they should deal with this within the Cong by the elders by following the Bible rules
      • confront the accused - if that doesn't work
      • take 1 or 2 people as witnesses to the confrontation
      • take the issue to the elders

    Once it goes to the elders it works like this:

    • The elders will listen to the accused and the victim separately and then together. The victim will have to sit in front of the abuser and 3 elders and explain in detail what was done without their parents being in the room
    • if the accused denies it the victim will be expected to have 2 or 3 witnesses to the abuse - like abusers are going to do it while a couple of people sit and watch
    • if she (or he) doesn't have the required witnesses it comes down to the child's word against tan adult. Since it is assumed children lie or take things out of context or misunderstand the elders will most likely say there is no proof and it ends there
    • the victim will then be told they cannot mention this to anyone in the cong including other family members so they don't
      • slander the accused
      • cause divisions

    Case closed.

    I'm also glad that certain countries have such laws in place. I guess the elders do what the WT legal dept advises them based on the laws in their area. That makes sense. I would hope, if there are no laws in their area that require reporting, that the elder isn't being taught, even indirectly through some element of doctrine, not to report, like for some religious "us & them" reason. I sincerely hope there is no element of JW doctrine that would lead an elder to conclude that he should not report out of loyalty or something.

    As you can see the path is convoluted and there is little chance of a child getting any real help

  • GLTirebiter
    GLTirebiter

    The US departmenrt of Health and Human Services provides information about the abuse reporting laws of the various states. Mandatory reporting laws vary from place to place. Almost every state has a mandatory reporting law. Sometimes these are written to apply to "any person", not just professionals (doctors, teachers, etc.). In some states there is no clergy-penitent privilege in cases of child molestation.

  • sizemik
    sizemik

    To do anything other than contact the appropriate authorities runs the risk of certain people covering tracks and preparing for what will follow . . . it gives them some measure of control . . . control they're not entitled to . . . control they've already abused.

    In this country, individuals are required by law to contact the appropriate authorities even if they suspect child abuse. Even Dr-Patient confidentiality is waived. Difficulties enforcing such a law reduces it to an obligation . . . but most are beginning to take it more seriously. (JW's exempt)

    It does put in place a principle (ethic) . . . if you suspect a child is being abused . . . report it . . . end of story / no exceptions

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    @InterestedOne: You would hope so but it doesn't happen. This is what happens when you call WTBTS Legal Dept:

    When you are not in a reporting state, he is told to seal the file, write pastorial privilege on it and file it.

    When you are in a reporting state, he is told to seal the file, write pastorial privilege on it, file it and make an anonymous phone call from a pay phone and let the "world's justice systems" take care of it.

    All claims and questions are to be redirected to WTBTS Legal Dept. and they ONLY make a note of the abuser's (if known) name. When investigators look for information, the WTBTS doesn't have it and the locals redirect them to the WTBTS. Only when anyone has a warrant, the local elders have to get a lawyer first, contact legal and then give them the absolute least amount of asked for information. THAT is what's being thought at the elder school all 80,000 of them went through in the last couple of months.

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Some info on clergy privilege from http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/clergypriest-privilege.html

    What is the Clergy Privilege?

    The clergy privilege (also known as the priest/penitent privilege) is one of the recognized forms of privileged communication that protects the contents of conversations between religious advisers (priests, rabbis, minsters, etc...) and an advisee. This means that any conversation you have with your clergy (assuming they are acting in their religious capacity) cannot be brought into court.

    For example, anything said to a catholic priest during a confessional cannot be used against you, or even mentioned, in any legal matter.

    Who is Considered Clergy?

    Although some states have tried to compile lists of exactly which clergy are officially recognized, the judge in a case will generally have the discretion to determine whether someone is a "bona fide" clergy member. Obviously, a minister of any major faith will certainly qualify. But even someone with no training and only a nominal religious title can qualify, if the confessor truly intended to confess to him in a religious capacity.

    When Does the Clergy/Priest-Penitent Privilege Apply?

    The privilege is a state law, which means each state has its own rules and regulations regarding how it can be used. Although in the past there were many strict rules regarding its use (such as only applying if the clergy and the confessor were of the same religious denomination), nowadays most states only have two main requirements restricting its use:

    1. The confessor must be speaking to the clergyman in his religious capacity. This means that you must be talking to the clergyman as your religious adviser, not just as your friend or associate. Simply having a conversation with a priest is not automatically privileged.
    2. No third parties may be present (unless they too are clergy you are confessing to). You cannot make a confession in front of other people and still expect the conversation to be secret.

    If these two requirements are met, any conversation you have with the cleric, even an admission of murder, is not admissible in court (with the notable exception below).

    Another important question is who holds the privilege; the clergy, the confessor, or both? That is to say, which of the two people involved controls whether it is used. Can a priest refuse to testify even if the confessor waives his right? Are the things the priest says privileged too? The states are divided evenly as to who holds the privilege, with about 1/3 saying the clergy, 1/3 saying the confessors, and 1/3 saying both.

    Is There an Exception to This Rule?

    Indeed there is, but it is a very contentious issue. Often, problems with the clergy privilege arise in cases dealing with child abuse. Every state in the U.S. has laws requiring certain categories of professional people to report child abuse. There are 35 states which either require clergy specifically to report any child abuse learned in confession, or else require all people to report any child abuse discovered by any means (including clergy). In these states, the clergy privilege will NOT apply in such cases (and in many states, in cases of child neglect as well). The remaining 15 states do not include clergy in the list of people mandated to report child abuse, so presumably the clergy privilege remains intact there.

    However, many religious bodies (the Catholic Church being the most prominent example), do not recognize any constraint on the privilege, so there are many clergy who may refuse to testify about privileged conversations even if it IS required by law.

    There is also a question of applicability when the clergy in question is a trained psychologist or secularly licensed counselor, whom often have certain duties to report crimes by state law. In such cases, the relevant question is whether the confession was made to the clergy in his religious capacity

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Note there isn't one example there where the victim is disclosing abuse. It is always applied to the person committing the crime

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