How can JW's not believe in the soul and yet believe in the spirit?

by Terry 31 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  myelaine

  dear Terry...

  you said: "For Jehovah's Witnesses the human IS the tent. No soul is contained. (They make "soul" the same as body.)"...

  accordingly the ones under the altar would be given a white "tent" while they wait for the completion of their number(rev.6:11)...at the same time they had washed their "tents" in the blood of the Lamb(rev 7:14)...and of course Jesus Himself was given a "tent" too (rev.19:13)when His moral body was quickened by the Holy Spirit in/through resurrection.

  Jehovah's Witnesses don't seem to understand or accept that the human vessel is presently a container for the intellect of the soul...when Jesus' mortal body died, the intellect of the soul wasn't dead He was able to preach to the spirits in hell(1 peter 3:19)...before His resurrection the just and the unjust (both the body & spirit of the individual) were asleep in death(able to be awakened)...it seems that justified and just are two different "states" of being...ie. cyrus the persian was just to the hebrews but he wasn't justified by God(?)

  after the resurrection of Jesus Christ Abraham was "justified/quickened by the Holy Spirit" because of his unwavering faith(apparently moses wavered elijah did not), just like all believers since that "time": acts 13:39, rom 3:20, rom 3:24, rom 8:30, gal 2:16)

  1 tim 3:16...

  And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
  
  God was manifested in the flesh,
  Justified in the Spirit,
  Seen by angels,
  Preached among the Gentiles,
  Believed on in the world,
  Received up in glory.

  it is the intellect of the soul or spirit that is given a "tent" "robe" or body (house: isaiah 38:1, luke 18:14) SINCE the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

  interestingly pauls "job" was a tent maker!...by teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ he was "preparing" the people, so to speak, to "set their house in order" so as to apprehend the "tent" at death.

  love michelle

  p.s. job knew that his mortal body would some day stand on earth but there is no evidence that he would be aware that he was "job". so the "in the memory of God" theory + resurrection (of the JW's) has no scriptural support...unless I've missed it and I'd be pleased to see it if it's there. the only thing close to their theory is when God says that He knew jeremiah in his mothers womb...but God knows jeremiah from beginning of life to end of life (just like He knows all of us!)so that doesn't really count.
• 

  Terry

  I think it is fairly rational and logical to think that very early in man's history the most noticeable difference between a DYING person and a DEAD person was that they STOPPED BREATHING.

  That LAST GASP as the air left their lungs must have seemed to be THE ESSENCE of LIFE ITSELF.

  That ruahh (breath) became a metaphor for the essence of life.

  The word respiration (breathing) contains spir which is the stem for spirit.

  For thousands of years the idea that something or other (breath/spirit) was THE MOST IMPORTANT part of THE PERSON THEMSELVES.

  Why? Without it there was only a dead body!

  This was so obvious it is little wonder that lore, myth, speculation and religious dogma was attached.
• 

  MrFreeze

  If we are completely gone but are recreated, are we technically even the same person? Maybe have the same personality and memory and all that but essentially it would just be a clone.
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  myelaine

  I read in the newspaper recently that the myths built up around various gods can be correctly identified as dead religions...(or something like that)

  I've also read that the Spirit gives life everlasting through Jesus Christ.

  xo

  p.s. some might call it guessing but I believe that with study of the bible and the Holy Spirit leading into all truth there can be found some interesting answers to complex questions. I would have to say that to reiterate or clarify what I said in my previous post: I believe that the resurrection of the justified, just and unjust started around the time of the incarnation and those who God had justified by faith previously immediately received and still immediately receive the Good News with joy and were/are quickened at their "second death"...rev 20:6...

  those who were/are not justified by God but were/are resurrected as just will eventually receive the Good News with joy...those who were/are resurrected as unjust may eventually receive the Good News with joy too or...revelation 21:7-8
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  ProdigalSon

  Terry, I love your posts! This really reinforces my belief that we are spirits inhabiting biological bodies, and in reincarnation versus resurrection.

  Violia, I believe you were thinking of Ecclesiastes 12:7.... "And the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

  But look at what it says in verse 6- "Remember him--before the silver cord is severed, or the golden bowl is broken; before the pitcher is shattered at the spring, or the wheel broken at the well."

  Regarding the "silver cord", this is from http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research12.html

  The silver cord has been described as being smooth, very long, very bright, like an elastic cable made of light, about an inch wide, sparkling like a tinsel on a Christmas tree, and attached to one of several possible locations on the physical body. During the dying process, as the spirit body leaves the physical body and moves farther away it, the silver cord becomes thinner as it is stretched to its limit and becomes severed. When this occurs, the spirit body is released from being attached to the physical body. At this point, it becomes impossible for the spirit body to ever return to the physical body. For this reason, we can define "irreversible death" as that point when the silver cord becomes stretched to its limit and severed. This is the so-called "point of no return." This boundary point may also be accompanied by the appearance of a particular landmark representing a boundary such as a river, a wall, a fence, or a canyon. Once this barrier is crossed, the near-death experience becomes an irreversible death experience.

  Many experiencers have felt the pull of the silver cord when it is stretched near its limit. They often describe the experience as being instantly retracted to their physical body - like stretching a rubber band to near its limit and then releasing one end of it.

  This silver cord is our spirit body's "lifeline" to our physical body in the same way that our umbilical cord is our "lifeline" to our mother's body during the birth process.

  During the death process, should the physical body be subjected to a violent death, such as in a severe car accident, the silver cord is severed before the impact preventing the pain that is experienced by the physical body from being felt by the spirit body.

  And from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_cord

  In metaphysical literature, the silver cord, also known as the sutratma or life thread of the antahkarana, refers to a life-giving linkage from the Higher self (atma) down to the physical body. It also refers to an extended synthesis of this thread and a second (the consciousness thread, passing from the soul to the physical body) that connects the physical body to the etheric body, onwards to the astral body and finally to the mental body. [1]

  During astral projection, some but not all projectors claim they can (at will or otherwise) see a silver cord linking their astral form to their physical body. This cord mainly appears to a beginning projector as an assurance they will not become lost. However, even experienced projectors find it useful, claiming it is a fast way to return to the body. The term is derived from Ecclesiastes 12:6-12:7 in the Old Testament, from the KJV:
• 

  myelaine

  dear MrFreeze...

  you asked: "If we are completely gone but are recreated, are we technically even the same person?"...

  I think to God we would be the same person even if we don't have memory of our "being" previously...having the same state of "being" as we did at the first death ie: justified, just or unjust would be the continuity of our mortal person at birth...but again it is our state of "being" at death which is what is important to God...eccl. 7:1...proverbs 15:30...who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

  love michelle
• 

  alias

  Never knew about the silver cord reference in Ecclesiastes. Wow...

  alias (here in spirit)
• 

  streets76

  Science and religion -- never the twain shall meet.
• 

  Terry

  Consiousness is necessary for personality. PERSONality.

  When you are asleep the lowest form of thinking (passive) creates nonsense images called dreaming.

  When we awaken, if we remember the dream, we can assign all sorts of fanciful "meaning" to it.

  But, if we die there is no level of consiousness or personality. There is no room for interpretation of "meaning."

  Dead is dead.

  What is the chief difference between DEAD and ALIVE?

  A body can remain alive and the consiousness of the brain be utterly absent (coma/vegetative state.)

  This LIFE (life?) is non-productive, has no goal or purpose. It simply IS.

  There is no quality of life in a coma. The person serves no purpose.

  What can we say about this consciousness? At its most purposeful focus it reveals the individual personality of a human being.

  Does it come and go? Or is it a condition like the weather?

  Where does the white go when the snow melts? White doesn't GO anywhere. It is a condition of reflection and a set of circumstances.

  LIFE may very well be a temporary set of circumstances entirely dependant on organic structure.

  We may devoutly desire that condition and circumstance to go on without end---but, reasonably, what else in this unverse goes on without change, corruption and chaos?
• 

  applehippie

  I just Googled "how often total cell replacement of human body". I remembered from Biology class talking about the continual replacement of cells in our body and generally speaking we are always replacing ourselves throughout our lives, with the exception of certain specialized cells. So, are we "cloning" ourselves anyway- or what? DNA and RNA are made up of building blocks of protiens and are themselves made of atoms. I would think if the were "rebuilt" in exactly the same way in the same order, then I am again "ME". The part that makes me myself are my thoughts and experiences. That's the only part that matters.

  Throughout time, mankind's remains have gotten recycled many times over, through plants, then animals and probably used in the formation and nurishment of other humans. How then can each and every "original" part of yourself be reclaimed?? Why does it really matter?

  The same argument (which I have had with my husband) that says God is capable of anything and can get all our "bits" back applies equally well, in my opinion, to the position that God can totally "recreate" us and we will be who we were- ourselves. To me it is far more problematic to try to pull original parts out of everything else it has become a part of than to go down to the molecular/atomic level and rebuild. That's the way we were designed to work anyway. We eat and nurish our bodies and repair or replace the parts that need it. What's the difference?

  By the way- The Egyptians thought they had this problem solved by preserving the body as a mummy with vital organ stored in jars nearby. However, they scraped out and discarded the brain...