Sheep and goats info needed!

by fadinfast 6 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • fadinfast
    fadinfast

    An elderly lady/sister came to visit my wife the other day, she wasn't here so she got me instead. This sister [late 70s early 80s] is a born in, has a husband who was an elder for many years, but is very sick now, also a daughter who was horribly [wrongfully] d/f, even by their rules, and a granddaughter in a simular situation.

    At the close of our 'little chat' she was saying, "where can I flee to". I told her that my wife and I had heeded the 'organizations own advice 'if you find your religion is lying, cheating or being deceitful or has bloodguilt, then flee from that religion'. I also mentioned that Jesus said, " where two are gathered in my name I am there also" so we don't feel alone. The info I am asking for comes from part of the conversation, where she said something like "they have always given truthful doctrines", I asked if she could recall any explanations where they finally went back to what Christendom had always taught, "certainly not" came the reply, I then told her about the sheep and the goats changes [from Barbara Andersons research at freeminds] which really astounded her to the point that she wants a printout of it. But she did say she didn't know that Christendom had believed that teaching for that long. So I thought I would print out a nice simple [authoritive] explanation, but I can't find one. So my request is can someone please point me to, or paste here so I can copy. Thank you in advance. Just a query about the statement in the research, it said 'Now Jehovah's Witnesses believe just like Christendom has for 2,000 years!' If Jesus was born 2011 years ago, he would have been 11 or younger when he spoke of this, is this a generalisation or am I missing something here?. FF

  • jwfacts
    jwfacts

    2,000 years

    That is a generalisation. There is no point saying Jesus said 1982 years ago, as the information will be out of date next year.

    Another example of believing what Christendom believed, changing and then changing back to Christendom is the superior authorities. http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/superior-authorities.php

    Sorry I cannot help regarding the document on sheep and goats.

  • clarity
    clarity

    Fadinfast,

    It was the Awake editor, Harry Peloyan who said "Now Jehovah's Witnesses believe

    just like christendom for over 2,000yrs"

    Here's the link you want.

    http://www.freeminds.org/blogs/musings-of-a-watchtower-insider/separating-the-sheep-from-the-goats.html

    clarity

  • Larsinger58
    Larsinger58

    Very interesting, and sad. Of course, the explanation is still WRONG! The WTS was cast into "spiritual darkness" on November 10, 1992, so this is more evidence of that.

    But for the sake of anyone who actually wants to understand this correctly, I will explain.

    This separation of the sheep and goats, wheat and weeds, fine fish and worthless fish, all relate drectly to the WTS, which served as God's "temple in its right condition" from 1886 to 1996. But as the parable about the wheat and the weeds shows, early on before the organization started to grow, weeds were already present. The weeds sown by Satan was the infestation of Freemasonry into the organization. But as the Bible notes, in order to protect the wheat so as not to pluck it up by mistake, the decision was made to "let the wheat and weeds grow together until the harvest" when a clear distinction would be made between the fake tares (weeds) and the true wheat.

    The "harvest" is when Christ returns, of course, to make this separation and judgment. This parallels over to the parable of the sheep and goats. Thus the sheep and goats are those true Christians and false Christians within the WTS. The WTS is represented by the "10 virgins" as well, where 5 are wise and 5 are foolish, and when Christ arrives there is a split-up between the virgins.

    So basically, when Christ returns, he would separate the true Christian witnesses from the false and these true witnesses would become the "little flock" whom he then brings to "other sheep not of this fold." This represents Christ taking the coin from the evil slave who buried it in the sand, not even putting it into a bank to gain interest, and giving it to the slave that had a 10-fold increase. This reminds us that Christ sent out TEN SLAVES to do work, but one became the evil slave. That evil slave is the current apostate WTS. But Christ has been gathering his sheep and anointed ones in several others places, secretive places, even though the "public" temple of anointed ones was the WTS. Note, of course, that the "man of lawlessness" rises up in God's own house to become a god over other gods. That is, the GB has made itself a god to the WTS and "mediator" by making itself God's own channel of communication, persecuting anyone who questions them. Point being, once you identify the public temple sect, you also identify the sect of the "man of lawlessness" who is also the "evil slave" and the "false prophet."

    But getting back to understanding the sheep and goats. "Immediately after the great tribulation" which the WTS thinks is Arageddon, we find Christ arriving and then beginning to separate the sheep from the goats. This "great tribulation" is not Armageddon! Further it is OVER before Christ arrives. The WTS wants us to think it is still in progress when the separation work begins! The Bible says "immediately after the tribulation of those days..." After means after. Further, how is it that at Armageddon anybody can flee into the mountains and save themselves, and women with small children will be disadvantaged? Nobody can flee from God's wrath to any mountains! Plus, this great tribulation apparently kills off the majority of the "holy ones." That's because, it says if the days were not cut short, "no flesh would be saved." Huh? The days of the tribulation are cut short to save a small remnant of the "holy ones", the majority of which would be killed during this great tribulation. Does that sound like Armageddon? No. God's "holy ones" at Armageddon will be spared.

    So very fundamental to understanding the parable of the sheep and the goats is understanding this "great tribulation" is aimed at the "holy ones" and these "holy ones" are the Jews and JWs. That is, the Nazi focus was on Jews and JWs, and the "great tribulation" was thus WWII and the Holocaust.

    After the tribuliation, the State of Israel would be set up and it is then that it is said that the messiah is "near at the doors." So Christ does not arrive until after the State of Israel (the fig tree) is set up.

    So sometime after 1948, when Christ arrives, quite privately, he comes first to God's own house, the WTS and begins to separate the sheep from the goats. When the sheep are separated out, the "little flock", the "five wise virgns" he then takes them out and brings them t "other sheep not of this fold" and then abandons the WTS and the apostate Man of Lawlessness, casting them into spiritual darkness.

    The WTS and everyone else will remain confused over this if you don't have the correct chronology, which dates the second coming in 1992, or if you don't realize the "great tribulation" of Matthew 24, which is completely over by the time Christ arrives, is a reference to the Holocaust.

    So the WTS still doesn't have the correct understanding, nor can they, because too many other concepts are wrong, including 1914 being the date of the 2nd coming. The separation by Christ of the "sheep and goats" is his separation within the WTS of those Bible-based wise virgins (wheat, sheep) versus the Watchtower-based foolish virgins (weeds, goats).

    Christ arrived on December 25, 1992.

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep
    I then told her about the sheep and the goats changes [from Barbara Andersons research at freeminds] which really astounded her to the point that she wants a printout of it.

    If you restrict yourself to only asking questions, you don't put yourself on the spot if your memory isn't 100% correct.

    When you want to make a point, try to get them to read to you and explain something that you know they have on their bookshelf.

    Dubs are trained to use a small mistake to trash your character. Don't give them a chance.

  • blondie
    blondie

    I'm not sure what the point is that you are making about the sheep and the goats. Do you have a link to what Barbara said? If so, she should have good documentation of what the WTS has said in the past and changed to later with appropriate quotes.

    *** w95 10/15 pp. 21-23 How Will You Stand Before the Judgment Seat? ***What Does the Parable Say?

    20 Shortly before Jesus died, his apostles asked him: “When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” (Matthew 24:3) Jesus foretold significant developments on earth before ‘the end would come.’ Shortly before that end, the nations will “see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.”—Matthew 24:14, 29, 30.

    21 How, though, will people in those nations fare when the Son of man arrives in his glory? Let us find out from the parable of the sheep and the goats, which begins with the words: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him.”—Matthew 25:31, 32.

    22 Does this parable apply when Jesus sat down in kingly power in 1914, as we have long understood?Well, Matthew 25:34 does speak of him as King, so the parable logically finds application since Jesus became King in 1914. But what judging did he do soon thereafter? It was not a judging of “all the nations.” Rather, he turned his attention to those claiming to make up “the house of God.” (1 Peter 4:17) In line with Malachi 3:1-3, Jesus, as Jehovah’s messenger, judicially inspected the anointed Christians remaining on earth. It was also time for judicial sentence on Christendom, who falsely claimed to be “the house of God.” (Revelation 17:1, 2; 18:4-8) Yet nothing indicates that at that time, or for that matter since, Jesus sat to judge people of all the nations finally as sheep or goats.

    23 If we analyze Jesus’ activity in the parable, we observe him finally judging all the nations. The parable does not show that such judging would continue over an extended period of many years, as if every person dying during these past decades were judged worthy of everlasting death or everlasting life. It seems that the majority who have died in recent decades have gone to mankind’s common grave. (Revelation 6:8; 20:13) The parable, though, depicts the time when Jesus judges the people of “all the nations” who are then alive and facing the execution of his judicial sentence.

    24 In other words, the parable points to the future when the Son of man will come in his glory. He will sit down to judge people then living. His judgment will be based on what they have manifested themselves to be. At that time “the distinction between a righteous one and a wicked one” will have been clearly established. (Malachi 3:18) The actual pronouncing and executing of judgment will be carried out in a limited time. Jesus will render just decisions based on what has become evident about individuals.—See also 2 Corinthians 5:10.

    25 This means, then, that Jesus’ ‘sitting down on his glorious throne’ for judgment, mentioned at Matthew 25:31, applies to the future point when this powerful King will sit down to pronounce and execute judgment on the nations. Yes, the judgment scene that involves Jesus at Matthew 25:31-33, 46 is comparable to the scene in Daniel chapter 7, where the reigning King, the Ancient of Days, sat down to carry out his role as Judge.

    26 Understanding the parable of the sheep and the goats in this way indicates that the rendering of judgment on the sheep and the goats is future. It will take place after “the tribulation” mentioned at Matthew 24:29, 30 breaks out and the Son of man ‘arrives in his glory.’ (Compare Mark 13:24-26.) Then, with the entire wicked system at its end, Jesus will hold court and render and execute judgment.—John 5:30; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

    27 This clarifies our understanding of the timing of Jesus’ parable, which shows when the sheep and the goats will be judged.

    IN THE PAST THE WTS TAUGHT THAT THE SEPARATION OF THE SHEEP AND GOATS WAS NOT FUTURE BUT ALMOST OVER:

    *** TRUE PEACE BOOK tp chap. 7 p. 83 par. 27 When Will the Foretold World Destruction Come? ***This separating work has been proceeding for many years. It is now near its conclusion. According to God’s Word, those who have rejected his Kingdom rule, as well as those who indifferently pass up the opportunity to learn of him, will be cut off. (Matthew 25:34, 41, 46; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9)

    *** w87 3/1 p. 29 par. 15 Making All Things New ***At this present time the enthroned King, Jesus Christ, is separating people one from another, “just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.” “The sheep” are those who show themselves righteously disposed toward the King and his spirit-begotten brothers of the “new creation.” These “sheep” are therefore invited to inherit everlasting life in the earthly realm of Jehovah’s Kingdom. Already, they enjoy the spiritual paradise restored here on earth.—Matthew 25:31-34, 46; Isaiah 11:6-9.

    *** w51 6/15 p. 368 par. 9 The Place of God’s Word in Our Lives ***We are living at the time of the presence of Christ Jesus in his glorious kingdom, and one of the visible evidences of this is his separating of the people of all nations into two classes, sheep and goats, symbolically speaking. Mighty angels attend this separation work, for Jesus predicted respecting this time: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne.” Those angels are not just ornaments, but are with Jesus for some service in the work to be done.—Matt. 25:31, NW.

  • fadinfast
    fadinfast

    JWF....Thanks for the clarification I sort of thought it must have been something like that, and for reminding me of the superior authorities, I had read that article [as I have read much on your site, love your articles, so easy to share with people] but had missed the point of it 'changing back to Christendom'. A good starting point for our next chat.

    Black Sheep...You make a good point ,thanks,

    Blondie....The link that Clarity gives above is the one I quoted, thank you for the 'was not future but almost over' quotes will add an other conservation point to or next chat. FF

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