Is it possible to define faith in a simple, logical, unambiguous way?

by losthobbit 67 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Fernando
    Fernando

    Sorry NC, I'm ignorant as to who Thor is.

    I would hold that FAITH is properly and originally a Judeo-Christian-Muslim concept which does not exist outside of Jesus or the God of Abraham (as described in the Torah/Tawrat/OT or Injeel/NT).

    It seems to follow that Thor worshippers have BELIEF in Thor but not FAITH unless one accepts an incorrect (religious) definition whereby faith=belief.

    From this perspective revelations obtained from malevolent higher powers or spirits existing in higher dimensions (above space-time) cannot properly be termed visions of faith, although they do provide transcendent insights not available to persons who have not experienced such contact.

    I have personally met and spoken with a genuine spirit medium who channels a particular entity. A person I know very well had an operation performed on them in a séance where the medium's hand entered the person's body. I have spoken face-to-face with numerous persons (especially Pharisees) whose mind and reasoning had been taken over by malevolent spirits and their convoluted, twisted, hostile but very intelligent reasoning. Contempt for and subversion of the unabridged gospel is a dead give away (for me at least).

    I was personally exposed to dimensions beyond space-time during a brief incident in my first year of primary school. As young as I was I suddenly had knowledge of the existence of dimensions above space-time, and was explaining this to my poor parents at that age... Decades later I was therefore not particularly surprised by physicist Michio Kaku's fascinating explanations of multiverses, 11-dimensional hyperspace and string theory (although far above my head).

    Sorry if I'm rambling... It's late here and I'd best turn in for the night...

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Fernando---I'm going to call the above satire and hope I am correct.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Oh, gosh. I did not realize that I am showing up so late. Anyways, here's my two cents.

    1. It is not based on proof. This means that if you can prove what you believe in, you don't have any faith.

    I think you are making a simple logical error. Even if:

    Proof => Faith

    Does not mean that:

    Faith = Proof

    I suggest a better description of the relationship is:

    Proof + Believe => Faith

    2. What about if there's no evidence at all... is that faith? Believing in something with absolutely no evidence, is what I would define as stupidity, and therefore not faith.

    You suggest that

    Proof + Evidence + Faith= Stupidity

    Infants must take a great deal of their interactions with the world on faith, because they do not have the context to make sense of their world. This starts to diminish at age three, when they learn the magical word, “Why?” and begin to ask about our blue sky.

    Infants aren’t stupid. They are marvellously adaptive. They continue to believe that their supper will arrive until evidence suggests otherwise.

    3. What about if there's evidence, but it's not conclusive? This seems to be a good definition... so if there's any kind of evidence, and that evidence makes you anywhere between 0.00001% sure, or 99.99999% sure then you have faith? Well this conflicts with "being SURE of what we hope for...", because being sure, means being 100% sure.

    Nearly every interaction with the world requires a certain degree of faith. There is nothing we can be 100% sure about in this world. Quantum mechanics blows away all the apparent certainty and materiality , yet we continue to believe that a struck key on the keyboard will give the same result.

    So perhaps our certainty can never be 100%

    ...

    5. ...In order to solve my problem with understanding faith, I used to define it as having enough evidence that you act on that evidence. For example, if you are 1% sure that Jesus exists, and you are baptised because of it, then you have acted in faith, and therefore you have faith in Jesus. Of course this conflicts both with the bible definition and #4 above.

    But what if faith is not evidence based? I’ll use analogies outside of the biblical realm. We have two sides of our brain; one which is delegated the logical functions, and the other that manages unstructured, three dimensional information. It is this other side of the brain that makes shape and sense of our world, and allows us to distinguish a wife from a hat.

    As an artist, I’ve worked hard to exercise this other half of my brain. I paint beautiful pictures. Some of the lessons learned as I’ve worked through this process I cannot express, and when I do, I ruin it. These paintings come out of that other, inexpressible part of me.

    Painting Flowers

    Why is it ruined when I try to explain it? Because I cannot deconstruct the process into logical, binary steps. (01001001001000000110110001101111011101100110010100100000011110010110111101110101).

    Another concern about the definition of faith is that it is personal. This means that evidence in favour of what a person believes is usually accepted, and evidence against is rejected. I believe that this can also be defined as closed-mindedness, or stupidity.

    Based on my description above, such a faith MUST be personal. The stupidity perhaps may come from thinking that this personal faith is self-evident and that others who have not experienced it, are false.

    Presuming that faith could be open-minded and unbiased, would mean that it is the most likely outcome of evidence which has been thoroughly investigated and tested by intelligent, open-minded individuals. Obviously that is not faith... that is science.

    At this point I think you are making too many leaps. I have challenged that faith is NOT logical, and cannot be properly deconstructed using the logical model. It still is useful, allowing us to move through our world with a certain degree of certainty.

    I might mention also that the english word, “faith” may be too broad for use. We use it for complete trust and confidence in anything, not just belief in a set of religious doctrines.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Fernando:

    I would hold that FAITH is properly and originally a Judeo-Christian-Muslim concept which does not exist outside of Jesus or the God of Abraham (as described in the Torah/Tawrat/OT or Injeel/NT).

    Here you have narrowed FAITH to “s trong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof” and further narrowed it to the Judeo-Christian-Muslim worldview.

    This is a highly personal view that does not stand up to scrutiny. I would posit that at least Confucianism, Hinduism, and the Greek belief systems are older.

    Plato described heaven in great detail, using the testimony of a man who rose up from his funeral pyre.

    Also Muslims and Jews subscribe to a particular code of behavior, and do not attempt to have their adherents subscribe to a particular belief. Christans are unique in that respect.

    ...I have personally met and spoken with a genuine spirit medium who channels a particular entity. A person I know very well had an operation performed on them in a séance where the medium's hand entered the person's body. [link is mine]...

    I have spoken face-to-face with numerous persons (especially Pharisees) whose mind and reasoning had been taken over by malevolent spirits and their convoluted, twisted, hostile but very intelligent reasoning. Contempt for and subversion of the unabridged gospel is a dead give away (for me at least).

    You realize that you have relegated anyone who intelligently challenges your point of view as directed by malevolent spirits, don’t you? Give me a good reason why I should give you the time of day.

  • losthobbit
    losthobbit

    I like what gubberningbody wrote.

    "The word "Faith" has been used by too many people in too many different ways to be useful any more."

    Those who believe that faith has value seem to disagree as to what exactly it is. This is, of course, the problem with words... their meaning can quite often be uncertain, and adjusted to suit the person's belief.

    Fernando wrote:

    Faith is best understood once experienced. I also strongly doubt it can be understood unless experienced.

    Which basically means that, in answer to my original question, "No, it is not possible to define it in a simple, logical, unambiguous way."

    NewChapter

    I was looking at the Christianity questions on StackExchange.com, and I came across someone who referred to himself as an Athiest Christian, or Christian Athiest, and he was giving strange answers to questions. People were asking him for the sources to his answers, and he explained that if you make up a religion you don't need sources, because you're the source. Bizarre... right? Anyway, I agree that it's unusual to hear of faith only applying to certain beliefs.

    jgnat

    People have already explained #1... so according to that definition (faith is not based on proof), you can believe and have proof, as long as your belief is not based on your proof. I can accept that, but it does beg the question as to what your belief is based on.

    I disagree with your statement "Infants aren’t stupid." I think that infants are actually pretty stupid. Depends on your definition of stupid, I guess. You wrote "Infants must take a great deal of their interactions with the world on faith." I suppose you could say that if an infant saw a scary movie he would have faith that there's a monster under his bed. If we all acted like infants... Anyway, I'm not sure exactly what your point is there, so I'll move on.

    I agree that we can probably not be 100% certain of anything, if we're honest with ourselves.

    Your point about art seems to be the same as what Fernando wrote, that faith cannot be explained, in which case your answer to my original question would also be, "No, it is not possible to define it in a simple, logical, unambiguous way."

    I do of course have a big problem with words that cannot be defined... words that "you have to experience it to find out." I used to be a Christian for many years, having what I believed was "faith". I should therefore have had this magical experience and know precisely what faith is, but instead, now that I've read many books and become a lot wiser I can simply say that what I had was merely ignorance and the common ability to make excuses for things which were illogical but was told that I had to believe anyway.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I do of course have a big problem with words that cannot be defined... words that "you have to experience it to find out." I used to be a Christian for many years, having what I believed was "faith". I should therefore have had this magical experience and know precisely what faith is, but instead, now that I've read many books and become a lot wiser I can simply say that what I had was merely ignorance and the common ability to make excuses for things which were illogical but was told that I had to believe anyway.

    My chief concern is with the English word. Too broad and too easy to mix in unrelated experiences.

    I disagree with your statement "Infants aren’t stupid." I think that infants are actually pretty stupid. Depends on your definition of stupid, I guess. You wrote "Infants must take a great deal of their interactions with the world on faith." I suppose you could say that if an infant saw a scary movie he would have faith that there's a monster under his bed. If we all acted like infants... Anyway, I'm not sure exactly what your point is there, so I'll move on.

    I do not mean to suggest we should all see the world through the mind of an infant. At a particular age, the bogeyman under the bed is no less real than a sunset. But in a few years the child is able to accept fantasy as an internal reality, and even learns to manipulate it. Infants learn at a stunning rate. They are not stupid.

    Your point about art seems to be the same as what Fernando wrote, that faith cannot be explained, in which case your answer to my original question would also be, "No, it is not possible to define it in a simple, logical, unambiguous way."

    If I remain consistent with my description of faith being a right-brain activity, faith cannot be explained using logic. It does not follow, however, that faith is stupid. Other activities the right brain handles, as I mentioned above, is identifying objects in three dimensional space. Even more complex is identifying moving three dimensional objects through space and time. Take the movement of waves on a beach, for instance. This is virtually impossible to explain in a simple, logical, unambiguous way.

    As an aside, I am pained that you float me in the same boat with Fernando. IMO, he has a tenuous grasp of reality.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    As another aside (I am really enjoying this conversation), I might have a kinder take on Christianity as I am an adult convert. No-one told me what I must believe. I did set aside critical thinking for a few years while I immersed myself in the experience. My deep thinking and reading over the past couple years, however, has led me to conclude I am no longer an Orthodox Christian.

    A smart colleague of mine is a Sikh. Her story reminds me of your reaction to how faith was presented to you. I knew very little about the Sikhs until I met her. She is very bright, broadly read, and multilingual. She recalls with resentment questions she posed to her deeply religious father. She would ask why they had to go to temple and other things. He would growl, "It is tradition." A deeply unsatisfying answer for an inquiring mind.

  • losthobbit
    losthobbit

    Hi jgnat

    Sorry for "Floating you in the same boat as Fernando" :)

    I think we probably all believe some nonsense... well, some more than others.

    Those who are irrational are the ones who don't realize that something they believe is nonsense. Those who are rational are the ones who are desperate to find out which of the many things they believe are nonsense.

    I read a quote recently, which I absolutely love...

    The definition of a great person:

    "When he makes a mistake, he realizes it.
    Having realized it, he admits it.
    Having admitted it, he corrects it.
    He considers those who point out his faults as his most benevolent teachers."

    There aren't too many people like that around, but it's certainly the kind of person I want to be.

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