Was Jesus' sacrifice really necessary? Or even a sacrifice at all?

by AiAi 26 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Cold Steel

  AiAi quote: I do think that god had to sacrifice Jesus because of a self-imposed law he was unwilling to break. But, I fail to see how 1 perfect person's temporary death is equal to 2 perfect person's eternal death along with a billion others life-long suffering.

  I'm not sure I understand you. Jehovah's Witnesses are taught that when one dies, they die. I reject this for a variety of reasons and not only believe the people survive death after life, but that they existed as spirits before they came to Earth. Thus, when the apostles asked Jesus, "Lord, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?" they were showing a belief in the man's premortality. The Lord also spoke to Jeremiah saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I sanctified you and I ordained you a prophet to the nations." (Jeremiah 1:5)

  Suffering and growing were two reasons we came to the earth. The Lord did not send us without our consent, for to do so would have been unjust and arbitrary. In fact, we knew exactly what we were getting ourselves into. The vast majority of near death experiences are consistent with this. Many report seeing people they knew before they came to this world. Rebecca De Mornay was on the Bio Channel recently where she recounted seeing her two daughters when she was a girl. She didn't know who they were, but she was very sick. As she got older, she saw them several more times, and there are others with similar stories who have written NDEs.

  I think we come to this world to grow. I think Adam was meant to fall and that the Father and Son would never have put a childlike man and woman into an environment with a being as horrendously evil as Satan with a tree that had no other purpose other than causing mankind's fall. What could God gain from putting Adam's posterity under the same condemnation -- after all, what did we do to deserve the punishment? But what if it wasn't punishment? What if we were supposed to fall? What if it was necessary to our next stage of development? Even when JWs leave the faith, they tend to cling to many of the beliefs they held before they left. I suggest they do some research into NDEs. I used to think they were just drug-induced experiences with hazy memories, but as I read more, and from many cultures, I no longer think that's possible.
• 

  AiAi

  Ding – I do understand the error in wt theology, it really does not make sense that Jesus would only partially cover mankind's 'debt'. But, what I don't understand is how he compensated for mankind's punishment fully through his 3 day death.

  Cold Steel -

  Thus, when the apostles asked Jesus, "Lord, who did sin, this man or his parents that he was born blind?" they were showing a belief in the man's premortality.

  I am trying to consider biblical theology, not what the apostles may have believed. I think your theory is interesting but not stated at all in the bible and most christians would disagree with you.

  Suffering and growing were two reasons we came to the earth.

  I think Adam was meant to fall

  What if we were supposed to fall? What if it was necessary to our next stage of development?

  You mean god wanted all the suffering (children dieing, murders, rapes, child starvation, disease, etc) to happen to us? For what? To make us toughen up? But, if we lived before now, how would that teach anyone anything if they were aborted before they were even born? Or died from SIDs? How does making people suffer teach them anything?
• 

  Chalam

  Does 1 perfect person's sin really equal 1 perfect person's sacrifice plus billions of imperfect peoples death and suffering?

  Only if that person is God

  Acts 20:28 (New International Version, ©2011)

  28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, [a] which he bought with his own blood. [b]

  Footnotes:

  1. Acts 20:28 Many manuscripts of the Lord
  2. Acts 20:28 Or with the blood of his own Son.

  John 1:1 (New International Version, ©2011)

  1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

  2 Corinthians 4:4 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)

  4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

  Jesus' sacrifice to save mankind really was not a sacrifice at all if he knew he would be raised up after 3 days.

  Jesus' sacrifice went well beyond being absent from His body for three days.

  Philippians 2:5-8 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)

  5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

  6 Who, being in very nature [ a ] God,
  did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
  7 but made himself nothing,
  taking the very nature [ b ] of a servant,
  being made in human likeness.
  8 And being found in appearance as a man,
  he humbled himself
  and became obedient to death—
  even death on a cross!

  Footnotes:

  1. Philippians 2:6 Or in the form of
  2. Philippians 2:7 Or the form

  Isaiah 50:6 (New International Version, ©2011)

  6 I offered my back to those who beat me,
  my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard;
  I did not hide my face
  from mocking and spitting.

  Isaiah 53:3-7 (New International Version, ©2011)

  3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
  a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
  Like one from whom people hide their faces
  he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

  4 Surely he took up our pain
  and bore our suffering,
  yet we considered him punished by God,
  stricken by him, and afflicted.
  5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
  he was crushed for our iniquities;
  the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
  and by his wounds we are healed.
  6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
  each of us has turned to our own way;
  and the LORD has laid on him
  the iniquity of us all.

  7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
  yet he did not open his mouth;
  he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
  and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
  so he did not open his mouth.

  Blessings in Christ,

  Stephen
• 

  Terry

  If I am the Greatest Chef on the planet and my meals poison people either my claim is delusional or I'm using

  a weird definition of the word "Chef."

  If God is CREATOR and his creations are perfect the result cannot be dysfunctional creations which undo their own purpose.

  Contingency planning and due dilligence would foresee destructive parameters post-haste.

  The Greatest Mind in existence does not solve problems; it prevents them from happening in the first place.

  Architects build things to last forever with the correct understanding of STRESS LOADS in advance.

  All of which goes to say the following:

  HUMANS have been telling stories of an invisible God (or gods) as long as humanity has existed.

  The stories simply had to incorporate a reason WHY a Divine Mind would put dysfunctional creatures with the power to undo His Purpose

  in opposition to infallible wisdom.

  The best these stories can do is imagine something or other as "reasonable". Talking snakes, for instance.

  Thousands of years later, if we take human sacrifice and talking snakes seriously we only have ourselves to blame.

  God has only to please himself, doesn't he?

  He has the power to do so.

  Unless we want to embrace a bored deity with nothing to occupy Himself with for all eternity but swatting the flies buzzing round His Divine face......we must

  admit the obvious.

  A GOOD GOD doesn't approve of torture, disease, death, famine, blasphemy, good-intentions gone awry (false religion) and then act almost powerless in the face of it all.

  This either IS or IS NOT the best of all possible worlds.

  If it IS, then God is a miscreant.

  If it is NOT, then God is a feeble phantom of our own dark imaginations.
• 

  AiAi

  Chalam -

  Does 1 perfect person's sin really equal 1 perfect person's sacrifice plus billions of imperfect peoples death and suffering?

  Only if that person is God

  But emptied himself of all divinity when on earth so still 'just' a perfect man while here.

  Jesus' sacrifice went well beyond being absent from His body for three days.

  I do understand he suffered a lot here on earth. but billions of others have suffered even worse. and his suffering seems secondary since it was not part of his atonement, only the act of him dieing was. so it still comes down to the fact that he only died for 3 days

  Terry - WTF? Whenever I read you comments they always align closely with what I think. Get out of my head!
• 

  Terry

  "Poof" I'm gone!

  How's that? :)
• 

  AiAi

  Damn, not as good. It is still a little enlightening when you do say something ... btw I dont comment on alot of your threads (cuz im still more of a lurker AND dont feel like i need too repeat you) but I like em :)