by losthobbit 31 Replies latest watchtower bible
Hi Guys
Thanks for all your comments, especially JuanMiguel ... that was a huge comment :)
I found that when I was religious, I was always taught things with a magnifying glass. Eventually I realized that one has to take a step back and look at the whole picture at a high level. It's only when you do that, when you can see the big picture, that you see how well, or badly painted that picture is.
Have a good day!
So God created the heavens, before he created light? Okay, I suppose this could be possible, depending how you interpret it, like "heavens" could refer to the atmosphere, but it sounds to me like he made all the stars, but they weren't glowing. Lets skip ahead to verse 14...
Your points are all good and true. Just a note though on this one: the model of the expansion of the universe notes that there was millions of years in which the universe was completely dark (no light sources) and eventually as the stars began to form themselves, the universe "turned on" with stars flickering on throughout the sky in a remarkeable display.
BluesBrother - "JW's accept that a creation "day" is not literal, so why stop there?"
Because the Eden-accaount-as-literal-history is weaved inextricably throughout WT theology; if JWs began regarding the rest of Genesis as allegorical, eventually (almost) everything about their "understanding" of the Bible would be called into question.
The end result would - ultimately - neccesitate a complete overhaul of the religion, which, at this point, would mark the religion's extinction.
The end result would - ultimately - neccesitate a complete overhaul of the religion, which, at this point, would mark the religion's extinction.
Yes, that would likely happen for any religion that believes in the "fallen from perfection into sin" story. I'm afraid that Jesus would be put out of a job, too.
moshe - "I'm afraid that Jesus would be put out of a job, too."
Precisely. If Adam was not a real historical individual, then he couldn't have passed on "Adamic sin" to his descendents; therefore, what need was there for Jesus to die as a "ransom sacrifice"?
This, IMO, is pretty much THE reason so-called "Bible-believing" Christianity can't accept evolution; conservative ideology takes it as a fundamental axiom that humans are inherently bad (and thusly need to be kept on a short leash for their own damn good, but that's a topic for another discussion), and that that badness (or "imperfection" in JW parlance) needed to be fixed, or "redeemed" (after all, a "perfect" God wouldn't create IMperfect beings to worship him, would he?). Therefore, Jesus HAD to have died to redeem us, therefore Adam HAD to have existed to fall into Sin, therefore Genesis MUST be literal, therefore evolution MUST be false.
And never the twain shall meet.
This argument and the evidence for evolution is pretty much why I'm "post-Christian", these days (although, ironically, I dig Jesus of Nazereth even more, now, than when I was an dutiful, practicing JW).
, I dig Jesus of Nazereth even more, now,
Many Rabbis look at the Torah as more of the evolution of human morality. For example, the Jews had many, many laws to regulate the moral treatment of stangers, captives and travelers long before the nations around them did.. Jesus is just another positive step in the emerging morality of the Jewish people., but then Paul and others hijacked Jesus' "sayings" in order to make their own religion.
In many, many ways, humans are more moral than the God they claim to follow- we wouldn't destroy millions of babies to prove the point who the boss is, we wouldn't have waited all this time to end human suffering just to prove a point with Satan--
Precisely. If Adam was not a real historical individual, then he couldn't have passed on "Adamic sin" to his descendents; therefore, what need was there for Jesus to die as a "ransom sacrifice"?
I have to disagree with this doctrine or teaching, whichever it is. Christ did not die just for Adam. He died for all of us. For our sins.
Christianity does not hinge on this tit-for-tat ransom sacrifice.
How many of us, in Adam and Eve's position, would not have made the same choice? How many of us even today have been deceived by someone else saying, listen to me, instead of... God, Christ, parents, whomever, etc?
Christ came to show us the choice we SHOULD be making. Which is to trust and listen to God. To understand how to do that, we can look to Christ and the example He set for us; with the understanding that He can 'speak' for us when and where we fail, out of love.
Tammy
moshe - "Many Rabbis look at the Torah as more of the evolution of human morality. For example, the Jews had many, many laws to regulate the moral treatment of stangers, captives and travelers long before the nations around them did.. Jesus is just another positive step in the emerging morality of the Jewish people..."
I've gotten this impression, too. Another example would be the clearly defined civil rights of indentured servants.
tec - "Christianity does not hinge on this tit-for-tat ransom sacrifice."
I agree; authentic Christianity (IMO) hinges on Jesus' teachings, particularly "love thy neighbor", "forgive up to 77 times", etc. As far as I'm concerned, the rest is gravy.
However, for most fundamentalist Christians, it does hinge on the "tit-for-tat ransom sacrifice". Remember, the vast majority of them are big fans of the OT - or at least, the "eye for an eye" parts (whether they want to admit it or not).
BTW, I'm mostly "post-Christian" these days also partly due to the WTS exceedingly thorough job discrediting virtually any other form of organized religion. I occasionally lean towards Unitarian Universalism because I'm still most comfortable with a Judeo-Christian framework, but I'm not actively religious in practice.
How many of us, in Adam and Eve's position, would not have made the same choice?
Well, I heard recently that if the first couple had been, say Chinese, they would have eaten the snake instead of the fruit, and we'd still be in Paradise!
BTW, I'm mostly "post-Christian" these days also partly due to the WTS exceedingly thorough job discrediting virtually any other form of organized religion.
I can't join another one either, and this was hard at first because I was so desperately searching for whoever had the truth. I discovered I didn't need to join an organization though, just follow Christ, and I have since found brothers and sisters in Christ here, some who do the same and some who do the church thing.
I am also not at all religious in practice. Just want to follow Christ and his teachings, and whatever comes from that comes from that.
Tammy
