Blood — Transference?

by Marvin Shilmer 16 Replies latest jw friends

  • just n from bethel
    just n from bethel

    This issue pretty much broke the camel's back for me. I had stopped believing in many teachings prior to this (1914, global flood, etc.), but upon my own similar research of medical journals (ironically done for a part on the service meeting) I learned about this glaring dillema. I also learned about blood transference between identical twins in the womb. It finally hit me that it would be dangerous for me to be part of a religion where I have to tell other people not to do what occurs in nature (Or as some may claim, by God's own design).

    Along those lines, Marvin or TD - I would be very interested in your commentary on this thread from noblood.org:

    http://www.noblood.org/general-discussions/6286-mothers-milk

    Here are some quotes from the pro JW's rebuttals:

    Human breast milk does indeed contain certain white blood cells. These can help to pass on disease-fighting capacity to the nursing infant. It seems however that these white blood cells, or leukocytes, come from the mother's lymphatic system rather than directly from her blood stream (the breasts are richly supplied with lymph vessels). Though clearly identifiable as leukocytes, they appear to have somewhat differing morphology and motility from the ones found in the blood stream.

    Here is a quote from the article "How Breastmilk Protects Newborns" by Jack Newman MD

    p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; }Breastfeeding Articles by Dr. Jack Newman - Breastfeeding Online:

    "As is true of defensive molecules, immune cells are abundant in human milk. They consist of white blood cells, or leukocytes, that fight infection themselves and activate other defense mechanisms.
    p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; } The most impressive amount is found in colostrum. Most of the cells are neutrophils, a type of phagocyte that normally circulates in the bloodstream. Some evidence suggests that neutrophils continue to act as phagocytes in the infant's gut. Yet they are less aggressive than blood neutrophils and virtually disappear from breast milk six weeks after birth. So perhaps they serve some other function, such as protecting the breast from infection. "The next most common milk leukocyte is the macrophage, which is phagocytic like neutrophils and performs a number of other protective functions. Macrophages make up some 40 percent of all the leukocytes in colostrum. They are far more active than milk neutrophils, and recent experiments suggest that they are more motile than are their counterparts in blood. Aside from being phagocytic, the macrophages in breast milk manufacture lysozyme, increasing its amount in the infant's gastrointestinal tract. Lysozyme is an enzyme that destroys bacteria by disrupting their cell walls. " In addition, macrophages in the digestive tract can rally lymphocytes into action against invaders. Lymphocytes constitute the remaining 10 percent of white cells in the milk. About 20 percent of these cells are B lymphocytes, which give rise to antibodies; the rest are T lymphocytes, which kill infected cells directly or send out chemical messages that mobilize still other components of the immune system. Milk lymphocytes seem to behave differently from blood lymphocytes. Those in milk, for example, proliferate in the presence of Escherichia coli, a bacterium that can cause life-threatening illness in babies, but they are far less responsive than blood lymphocytes to agents posing less threat to infants. Milk lymphocytes also manufacture several chemicals-including gamma-interferon, migration inhibition factor and monocyte chemotactic factor-that can strengthen an infant's own immune response." p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal { margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: "Times New Roman"; }div.Section1 { page: Section1; } So the leukocytes in mother's milk would appear to be specialized for the particular job they have to do in the baby's immune system. Originating in the lymph vessels, they are evidently separate and distinct from those circulating in the mother's blood vessels.
    And also:
    Hello again,

    I will try to explain it a little bit more what I mean. This is only an addition not a new statement.
    As everybody here in this forum knows, the whole blood exists of four main components:
    plasma, erythrocytes, leucocytes and thrombocytes. JW refuse to get one ore more of this main components or the whole blood for a transfusion.

    This four main components can be subdivided in subcomponents: erytrocytfractions, leucocytefractions, thrombofractions and plasmafraction.
    Plasma for example includes water (more than 90%), albumin (4%), glubolin (3%) fibrinogen(1%), etc. Erythrocytes: hemoglobin, h?min, etc.
    Thrombocytes ...

    leucocytes: neutrophil granulocytes (50 bis 80%)
    * eosinophil granulocytes (2-4%)
    * basophile granulocytes (0,5-1%)
    * monocytes (2-8 %)
    * lymphocytes (25- 40 %)

    It ?s a matter of their conscience if JW refuse to get fractions or if they allow to get them transfused. Some say no, others say yes.
    The question now is: are all the components of the white cell, like neutrophil granulocytes or basophile granulocytes autonomous parts like the erythrocytes as collectivity, or are they "only"components of the white cell and all together are the leucocyte?

    In my opinion like for example the hemoglobin alone is not the red
    blood cell, but only a part of it, so are the neutrophil granulocytes or the basophil granulocytes not the white cell but belongs to the whole part.

    On the other side it is interesting to see that for example the neutrophil granulocytes stay only 6-8 hours in the
    blood circuit - then they disappear to the surface of the mucous membrane. Could they be there still main components of the blood ? They do separate from the blood blood any more. Interesting things are going on in the body. and do "lead a own life", but not in the If all the parts of the leucocytes are autonomous main blood products, that means they are all main components of the whole blood , the question would be legitimate why a main component of the blood is transfused from a mother to a child. But as an embryo do not get the whole blood from the mother, but fractions (also parts of white cells) to stabilize the immunity, so in the mother?s milk the baby gets important components to continue to build up the immunity of the child.
  • TD
    TD

    This individual is mistaken.

    The question now is: are all the components of the cell, like neutrophil granulocytes or basophile [sic] granulocytes autonomous parts like the erythrocytes as collectivity, or are they "only" components of the cell and all together are the leucocyte?

    First of all, anytime you see the suffix "cyte" appended to the end of a blood component name, you're talking about an entire cell. It's derived from the Greek κυτος -- "Cell"

    So when you see terms like "Neutrophil granulocyte" or "Basophil granulocyte" or "Lymphocyte" or "Monocyte" we're not talking about components of white blood cells. We're talking about types of white blood cells. Big difference.

    The "Fractions of primary components" rationale doesn't apply here.

    Further, the idea that the Neutrophils in mother's milk didn't come directly from the blood stream, but entered the lymphatic system first is a red herring. JW policy doesn't make this distinction

  • just n from bethel
    just n from bethel

    TD - have I ever told you that you're awesome?

    I think this explains why the watchtower hasn't really ever commented on this gaping hole in their blood policy. The comment comes from the pro-wt site: noblood.org which supposedly is run by medical professionals that are JWs.

  • just n from bethel
    just n from bethel

    I tried to get on the noblood.org forum to ask a question but was denied because they felt the nature of my question was too controversial and not appropriate to the forum:

    It relates to what TD said:

    Further, the idea that the Neutrophils in mother's milk didn't come directly from the blood stream, but entered the lymphatic system first is a red herring. JW policy doesn't make this distinction

    My question was - If a medical situation arose where a patient was told he needed a transfusion of white blood cells, would it make a difference if the WBCs came from milk or blood?

    I got an email stating that my line of questioning was inappropriate for the forum.

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    just n from bethel,

    Whoever wrote that piece you quote above is just plain ignorant of transport within the mammary organ.

    The primary transport of material is from the mother’s peripheral blood because the cardiovascular system is the body’s primary means of transporting nutrition. In other words, most of what is found in milk comes from blood. Most of this material from blood transports through the epithelial cells as precursors. But white cells take a direct path between the epithelial cells through pathways containing a tight junction that white cells have a means of navigating.

    The idea that white cells migrating into a mother’s milk come uniquely from the lymphatic system is a laugh.

    Marvin Shilmer

  • Marvin Shilmer
    Marvin Shilmer

    just n from bethel,

    You write:

    “If a medical situation arose where a patient was told he needed a transfusion of white blood cells, would it make a difference if the WBCs came from milk or blood?”

    Watchtower’s blood doctrine does not prohibit Jehovah’s Witnesses from accepting transfusion of white cells extracted from milk. Think on that.

    I once asked Fred Rusk if we could accept white cells from blood if we first had them passed into milk. He turned and walked off without uttering a single word.

    The whole blood teaching is one big hoax. It would be a big joke, except folks die over the bloody thing!

    Marvin Shilmer

  • just n from bethel
    just n from bethel

    Thanks Marvin. Great job.

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