Who Draws The Line and Why?

by hillary_step 28 Replies latest jw friends

  • TR
    TR

    Man, a tough one. I would not attempt to inform any of them.

    The problem is, some people benefit from this cultish religion. On the other hand, some people lives are destroyed by the cultish religion.

    When it comes right down to it, prevention is the best method, imo.
    If you know a friend that is interested in JW's, we should at least warn them of what could happen, should they choose this path.

    If JW's are instrumental in getting a hooker off the streets, or a crack-head to stop burglarizing for his habit, then there is a benefit to that person AND to society in general. But at what cost? It depends on what happens later to that hooker/crack-head and their families/friends, and who THEY bring into the cult, if any, and what happens to them, etc., etc.

    It's a crap shoot.

    TR

    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
    --Benjamin Franklin, 1759

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    To me it's as simple as a lie verse the truth.

    Truth is precious and should be saught after to be attained.

    I would try to show them the Truth about the WT no matter what their situation was.
    But how much effort would I put into showing them would depend in how much they respond to what I tell them. I feel no obligation to force someone to see the truth if they wish not to, but will try when ever I can, the rest is up to them.

    Now if a GB of the WT was on his death bed and I could prove to him he was not a leader the the one true religion, I would not hesitate, even if it left him with a miserable feeling up till he finally died.

    I do believe in Jesus Christ, and so I would tell anyone with out distinction the truth about the WT, and offer the freedom that comes from Him.

    If it is truth,.. I feel speak it,.. and let the chips fall where they may.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
  • outnfree
    outnfree

    Hilary,

    I would like to live in the congregation you described in Scenario #2.
    In my personal experience, the "friends" are not so loving.

    There is a sister in my ex-KH who is a severe diabetic and requires oxygen and is often homebound. While she is linked to the meetings by telephone, it is rare for people, other than her own family who have positions of responsibility locally, to make personal visits. Unless they're out in field service, and counting time. (The pioneers were told visiting the sick could be counted as 'time' -- imagine that!)

    Another sister has allergies to the chemicals emanating from the materials used to build a new hall. Her husband is an elder. While he is wonderful and meek, and she, too, has a phone hook-up, she receives few visits, and he even less encouragement.

    A third family has a second young child with a life-threatening disease. When the daughter was hospitalized, the [JW] relatives took over the care of the older child, but few 'friends' visited or called the hospitals. When the child had to be brought to a specialist in NY there was no move to help with expenses -- the sister had to stay over a MONTH in the hospital room with local NY congregations doing her laundry for her and visiting (but not housing her). Elders did not bother to make long distance phone calls. When the child was hospitalized about an hour away from home, meals were offered for a short time and then curtailed.

    A fourth sister's JW husband became an alcoholic who eventually left her and was disfellowshipped and left her destitute. Did we even hear from the platform that she needed help? No. Another sister and I brought her groceries and offered to transport her to/from work as the old rattrap she was driving had finally broken down and the brother who was supposed to help her repair it hadn't shown... She never did take us up on the offer -- instead went home to her mother's in another state , still in love with her DF'd hubby and crushed that the 'friends' hadn't acted sooner to help her. Her situation WAS so desperate by the time that we acted, that she was right to pull up stakes and try to salvage her financial life as best she could.

    And never mind that during my first back trouble when I was new in the congregation and flat on my back for 2 weeks, people couldn't do enough to help me, but by the time I actually had back SURGERY and a recuperative period of SIX weeks a few years later, only a few showed up at the hospital and there was NO elder-sanctioned help! (Very little actual help, either!)

    ------

    In trying to strictly answer your questions, I would not interfere with any of these people's lives unless asked by them why I have disassociated myself. Then I would tell the truth without compromise.

    I had a similar dilemma -- a societal misfit who was feeling very good about her newfound association and beliefs. I decided NOT to go to her before I left to disabuse her of her ideas that she had found something good and true. Sometimes I regret that decision. At the time I thought she was better off SOMEWHERE where she'd have some human concern. But I fear she will suffer more later as she surrenders herself to the control of the Borg, so I am wondering if I should try to help her mother (who disapproves of the religion) get her out.

    However, I think the "what if's" raised by others are very, very pertinent. There are policies and beliefs in the JW religion that are harmful and deadly, which is why I choose to advertise those dangers in my own little way.

    outnfree

    It's what you learn after you know it all that counts -- John Wooden

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    Dumb religious beliefs that either validate or turn around a life are nothing JW's have any monopoly on.

    Therefore your question is something that applies to anyone who knows someone who is following a way of life that they think is dumb due to a set of beliefs, and gains some fringe benefits from this.

    Personally speaking, people can believe we were created by the Easter Bunney if they don't parade their beliefs in front of me as though they think I am ignorant or deluded. Then they have asked for enlightenment.

    My parents are in their mid seventies. On one hand I want to tell them everything I know. On the other hand it would be a little harsh; "Hey, Mum, Dad, you wasted your LIVES!!!!"

    I was very conflicted about this, but eventually figured it out, for me. This is what I wrote to my dad a while back;

    I'm very happy with what I believe and how I feel about things, but I'm in a difficult position.

    You are free to say what you like about what you believe; it won't change how I feel for you one iota, not one jot, or cause me any difficulty or conflict.

    It is wonderful that my difference in lifestyle has not diminished your or Mum's love for me.

    I have no desire to 'stand against' or be seen as doing that. I just believe different things, no religion or anything like that, but beliefs all the same, although they'd seem rather scientifically oriontated from your point of view.

    But I am aware of the discomfort you might feel and the difficulties you might face if I discussed what I believe. Not due to you or Mum, but due to the view taken by the Society on those with opposing views. There does not seem the scope for someone to have belief and be seen as living life in parrallel with people of different beliefs. A difference in beliefs is seen by definition as opposition.

    As I do not want your loyalty to the Society to conflict with our relationship as son and father, I'd rather not get into these sorts of discussions.

    They've not challenged this. If they did ("well, say what you have to say, we're not going to let it get in the way of our family"), I would have 'permission' to speak freely. But they are happy with the status quo.

    And I also got some nice little mindbombs in the letter;

    "the view taken by the Society on those with opposing views"

    "A difference in beliefs is seen by definition as opposition"

    "I do not want your loyalty to the Society to conflict with our relationship as son and father".

    Once my parent are gone, my brothers don't get the same consideration; I will speak. If any of my nephews show any sign of wanting to know, then I'll speak. The movement they need is on their shoulder.

    Other people are 'less important' than family, which I suppose I need to comment on to answer your question.

    If they live their lives and let me live mine, fine, they have every right to believe in the Easter Bunny.

    If they are going to do something really stupid because of their beliefs, I'll speak.

    If they are in distress bvecause of their beliefs, I'll speak.

    If they knock on my door, hear me roar!

    If they are happy worshipping the Easter Bunny, I'll shut the fuck-up unless they want to try and prove themselves right.

    Institutionally, rather than individually, I have a more full on, 'fuck the WTBTS and the horse it rode in on' attitude, as I'm not walking over anyones deliberate dellusions, but attacking a crappy little cult.

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • lydia
    lydia

    I would think that instead of trying to show them what is wrong with their religon - I'd do the opposite...
    I'd make freinds with them and show them instead of just telling them..
    this way they would have to start questioning on their own..
    and gently explain when the questions come up eventually..
    kind-of using the Borg's lessons on how to talk to householders against them..
    The persons you describe are dependent on the congregations..
    to free them from that is what is needed....
    not lectures..
    jut my thoughts..
    Lyd

  • 2SYN
    2SYN

    I've never personally experienced anything like this, but my feeling is that if you want to remain in a fairy tale world, then hell, it's your life, buddy, enjoy it while it lasts.

    Like some others have said above, humanity DOES have a problem facing reality a lot of the time, and organized religion is often one way of doing this. Deluding oneself with impossible visions of a "Paradise Earth", and not dealing with real-life problems such as poverty, hunger, and other human rights crises is very, very wrong.

    Humans are humans because of our frontal lobes - if you don't use them, you are beneath my contempt People who indulge in fairy tales and ignore hard logic are pitiful, but often they are beyond the ability of ANYONE to help (as might even be the case with these people hillary mentions).

    However, the most stupid, unsalvageable people of all are those who KNOW that the Troof is a giant lie and ocntinue to co-exist in it, and even promote it's causes. I can't believe some people would actually do this, for any reason whatsoever.

    Many people do have families and support networks in the Troof that they will miss terribly (thanks to that laudable practice (sp?), shunning) if they were ever to leave, but that's no excuse. I would rather lose ALL of my family (figuratively - if they all had to die I would make some sacrifices, but here I'm just talking about shunning) and friends than live a lie again the way I was forced to a few years back. I'm just not built to handle it.

    I would rather be a free cocroach than a lion in a cage.

    Just my 0.02$!

  • hillary_step
    hillary_step

    Thank You All,

    For your very useful comments. I wrestled with this sort of issue for some while.

    My own sentiments revolve in the responsibility of after-care. A declaration of truth in these sort of situations, and which then unhinges a persons attachment to their system of support, should be followed by aftercare. If I am not in a position to offer the needed support that people in these type of situations would need once they learn the realities of the WTS, I would, and do say nothing.

    Best to you all -- HS

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    Nice closing HS:

    I agree. If a person is not available to help pick up the pieces, do damage control, then it's best not to get involved at all.

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    HS,

    I agree with you to a point, we should have the after condition of the the persons we tell the truth about the trooof to.

    In all fairness; if we expose the lie, we are under no obligation to furnish an alternative to the lie.
    To go a step further though and offer an alternative is the human thing to do. If we can.

    But what if you don't claim to have all the answers and no absolute true altenative?
    Should we just let the WT grow and delude more and more people?
    Should we let them ruin more and more families?
    Should we let them claim more and more lives with their screwy medical/religious teachings?
    Should we just let them go about unhindered?
    These moral questions beg an answer in each one of us.

    I feel like we're caught sometime between a rock and a hard place on this one. So many roads which one do I choose?

    Famous line: "You want the truth,.. you can't handle the truth"

    Truth can really hurt sometimes, but sooner or latter we have to face it, why not sooner? I believe in the God of Truth Jesus, and that some day all will have to face it whether they like it or not.

    I feel under no obligation to make truth known to ridiculers, and those that don't want truth,.. just as I see the Father does not feel obligated to do so.
    Can I judge correctly what catagory a person is in? Maybe sometimes.
    I try to use decernment, and sometime intuition, in making the call.
    I can't find any hard fast rule(absolutes) to go by with 100% confidence. Such is life and the responsibilties that more knowledge brings.

    Thanks HS for your sobering thoughts.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?

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