This is obviously due to the substitution, tribes became an idolater legitimately missing: Dan ... and Ephraim.
If that were true, none of the tribes would be included, dear adwsed12345 (peace to you!), as all 12 of the tribes became idolaters at some time or another: first the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel (Oholah), who experienced exile to Samaria at the hand of the Assyrians as a result; then the 2-tribe kingdom of Judah (Oholibah), who experienced exile to Babylon at the hand of the Chaldeans as a result. (Ezekiel 23)
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel He heard their number, 144,000 which is clearly a symbolic number, later he sees them as a great multitude which no one could count.
These are two distinctly different groups, dear one: Israel... and the rabble/crowd/multitude/"vast mixed company" who go with them. (Numbers 11:4). The sons of Israel are separated out here to ensure fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham. It was his seed (through Isaac) that was to be the holy nation chosen to God (which is the ONLY reason why the Israelites were chosen at all). It turned out to be Israel because Esau sold his birthright as firstborn (thus, it should have been his descendants) to his brother, Jacob (later named "Israel") for a bowl of stew. The "sons of Israel" are literal descendants of the 12 sons of Jacob (aka Israel). That is fleshly Israel, however. SPIRITUAL Israel is made up of those of fleshly Israel who are "sealed" (to ensure the promise to Abraham does not go unfulfilled)... AND the nations (gentiles, and thus Israel (non-Jew) AND non-Israel), from whom JAH "takes out a people for himself/his name" (Acts 15:14).
In the NT the church is described as the Israel of God, Gal 6:16, and as Abraham's seed in Gal 3:29, in Rom 4:16 Abraham is the father of those who believe.
This is true; however, Paul was addressing ONLY Jews in his letter to the Galatians and in the initial part of his letter to the Romans, including Romans 4:16, as he did not address non-Jews until the 11th Chapter. (Galatians 1:13; 2:15; 3:2, 7-9, 15-19, 23; Romans 11:13)
The number 144 also appears in Rev 21:17 which is the thickness of the walls of the New Jerusalem
And even more corresponding number... 144,000... appears at Revelation 14:1-5 and it is speaking of the same group. These are chosen Jews who, after separating themselves (from the old Jewish system of religion) and being "taken in" to the Body of Christ by means of his blood (which cleansed them)... did not defile themselves with the harlot or her daughters ("women") and thus remained clean, virgins. They followed the Lamb... exclusively... and adhered to him as their [future] husbandly owner. They sing a "new" song in that they sing the "song" Israel was supposed to have sung all along... the "song" of the pure language of truth. They don't try to deceive God, Christ, or their fellowman, or mislead any. They master this song because it is one that was in their nature... because it was Abraham's nature.
which is a clear reference to the complete OT and NT church.
This is an error; the "complete" church is made up of much more than the walls: it has a foundation, pillars, gates, stones... even a temple sanctuary. What the illustration depicts is a part of the temple compound, which temple is made up of people: Christ is the Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); the Apostles are the Foundations (Ephesians 2:20; Revelation 21:12-14, 19-21); the Prophets and others are the pillars (Ephesians 2:20; Revelation 2:7; 3:12) and/or living stones (1 Peter 2:4, 5). God and Christ are the temple sanctuary, the Holy... and the MOST Holy. (Revelation 21:22) The "walls" and "gates" are the 144,000 "from among the sons of Israel."
12,000 is found in Rev 21:16 as the length of the New Jerusalem, again this is a vision of the new Jerusalem whose gates had the names of the twelve tribes of Israel on them and whose twelve foundations had the names of the twelve apostles on them because the city is composed of both old and new testament saints.
This is another error: the old "testament" was done away with by means of Christ. There are ONLY the New "Testament/Covenant" holy ones, which includes those written about in the OT (who were also part of the NEW Covenant/Testament, by showing themselves to have that "Law" already written on their hearts - Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Isaac, Jacob (Israel)... and others... centuries, if not millenia... before the Law Code was ever written on stone (which is was ONLY because Israel proved themselves unknowing... and unfaithful... as to it... when they left Egypt. Indeed, only 3 days out and they began to complain, thus demonstrating their lack of FAITH). But even Moses knew of the New Covenant - he chose it over the glory he could have had in Egypt. (Hebrews 12:26) Yet, the Written Code had not even been put down, yet.
A number of dispensationalist commentators particularly from America hold that there is a separate place for Israel and the church in their theology, but this does not accord with NT theology about the church, the 144,000 are not Jewish converts in the last days but are the church.
This is another error: the 144,000 are not Jewish "converts" (to "christianity), no. They are TRUE christians, those who adhered to the TRUE Jewish system of worship, which system Christ also adhered to, versus the very muddled and tained one created by the corrupt priests, scribes, and "Pharisees." They always were. Following Christ was not the NEW faith - it was the ORIGINAL faith... exercised by Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc. It was written on their HEARTS, so that they didn't need a written code. When the Most Holy One of Israel gave Israel the written Law, it was because they proved that it was not already written on their hearts. So, He gave them something they could SEE... because they walked by SIGHT. He later vowed to give THEM (the nation of Israel, of which Abel, Enoch, Abraham, Isaac, and Lot were NOT a part, because "Israel" didn't even exist, yet) a NEW Covenant... on their hearts as it had been on the hearts of those before.
The church is the true Israel of God
Which church is made of up people... Israel and the nations... and is NOT capsulized in some religious organization/institution!
God works in the world through his church
Yes!
in the OT it was through the twelve tribes and in the NT through the twelve apostles.
Another error, dear one: the 12 tribes repeatedly screwed up; thus, in the OT it was through the Prophets. In the NT, it was through the Apostles, "older men", the fleshly brothers of my Lord... AND other members of the Body - including old[er] women... and young men and women (who were given various gifts, including prophesying). Holy spirit was not poured out upon the Apostles alone. Paul was not one of the 12 (even he admits that); yet, he was used extensively (and NOT because he was so zealous - at least, not starting out - but because he had to replace Stepehn, whom he had killed). Nor were James and Jude, the fleshly brothers of my Lord of the 12; yet, they, too, were used by my Lord. In addition, those men (the Apostles) had their own assignments to tend to; yet, looking after the widows and orphans is a "work" of God, which was carried out by others, including women.
The place for Israel or rather the Jewish people in the last days is as part of the church. The number thousand means complete so the 144,000 represent all God's people from the old and new testament.
May I ask... where do you and those who say this "get" that the "number thousand means complete"? Or even that the "number" 144,000 means complete? ANY number can be considered "complete"... if it completes the intended structure. Thus, had the Most Holy One of Israel chosen any other number (say, 1,200 out of every tribe), the building would STILL be "complete." Please tell me your reasoning for calling the number "complete" versus a fulfillment of the promise to Abraham. Because 12 by 12,000 is really a square, is it? Rather, isn't 12 by 12... or 12,000 by 12,000 a "complete" square?
The 144,000 is not a literal number, it is the complete church not part of it. 144=12 * 12, i.e. OT * NT church, 1000=10*10*10 which means completeness.
Another error, dear one. What you're overlooking is that the 144,000 and the "multitude" are two separate groups, the first which can be numbered, the second which cannot be. Together, these make up the "complete" church. What we CAN tell is how many cornerstones the church has (1); how many foundations (12); how many gates (12); how many walls (4, with three gates in each); even how many temple sanctuaries (2 - a holy and a most holy). What we CAN'T tell... which CANNOT be numbered... are the pillars... and stones. Why? Because EVEN if we know the breadth and height of the walls we DON'T know the depth of them (one brick? Two? Twelve?), or the size of the pillars or stones/bricks.
The symbolism ought to be evident from the breakdown of the number 144,000 into twelve tribes of exactly 12,000 for each tribe. Israel was the name given to Jacob after he struggled with God and with men and overcame (Gen 32:28), once again a reference to God's people as overcomers.
To the contrary, the LITERALNESS of the number IS evident. All thoughout the Revelation John uses symbols... and words such as "like a" this and "as a" that. Yet, here he stated that he heard the number, AFTER which he saw a crown that NO MAN can number. He numbered the first, however.
144,000 from all the tribes of Israel - What follows is clearly a census of all the tribes of Israel,
Another error, dear one. These are those "from among the sons of Israel" who are "reserved" by God Himself. (1 Kings 19:18; Romans 11:4)
however when we examine the census it has some significant differences from actual censuses taken in the OT.
That there are "significant differences" should show you that they have no correlation. The fact that the time came when NO census was to be taken (because the time would come when NO MAN would be able to number "Israel") should also.
Each tribe has exactly 12,000 counted so the census should be regarded as symbolic. When the first census was taken of the tribes they had to pay a ransom, Exo 30:12, so those in the census were ransomed people.
Yet, BOTH groups are ransomed, those from among the sons of Israel... AND the multitude that is saved WITH them:
"And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation."
"These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
The 144,000 are found again in 14:1 where they have the name of the Lamb and the Father written on their foreheads. In the description of the new Jerusalem, 22:3-4, we also find God's servants with his name on their foreheads.
This is because they are indeed PART of New Jerusalem; they are the WALLS and GATES of her, the Bride of Christ. ALL who are a part of that City has the name of the Lamb and the Father written on their foreheads... whether from among the sons of Israel who have been sealed, or the mulitude that "go with" them... out of EVERY nation, tribe, tongue, and people.
From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed - The 144,000 sealed, the first born of the twelve tribes of OT Israel is Reuben who is normally mentioned first, he is listed second to Judah, but here the first tribe in the list and therefore the first born is from the tribe of Judah
You are correct as to the "firstborn" being from Judah, but this is because Israel (Jacob) gave the blessing (that would have gone to Rueben, then Simeon, then Levi) TO Judah... due to the errors of the first three. (Genesis 49:3-12) Through this blessing, the "seed" that should have passed through Rueben (just as it should have passed through Ishmael, Abraham's firstborn, but didn't because the promise was for Isaac... and Esau, Isaac's firstborn, but didn't because Esau sold his birthright)... was given to Judah.
Jesus is the first born of the dead (Rev 1:5, Col 1:15) and is from the tribe of Judah (Heb 7:14, Rev 5:5). He is the firstborn of many brothers, Rom 8:29.
He is the Firstborn, period, dear one. Of everything. Life... AND death. And because he came through Judah's line, Judah receives the blessing (the sealing) first.
The number of people in each tribe is 12,000 which is symbolic, this number also occurs when the New Jerusalem is measured, its length, width and height is 12,000 stadia. It had twelve gates and on each gate was written the name of one of the tribes of Israel, the city had twelve foundations on which were written the names of the twelve apostles.
Please see above as to the construction of the "building"...
from the tribe of Levi 12,000 - Levi is the tribe of priests, it is now include in the census, whereas they are not normally counted (Num 1:4749) 'You must not count the tribe of Levi or include them in the census of the other Israelites'. The NT saints are a royal priesthood, 1 Pet 2:9, there is no need now for a separate tribe of priests.
Levi is included, dear one, because the covenant my Lord made with the Apostles (for a kingdom) included Levi. It was given to the 12... as over the 12 tribes. If Levi wasn't counted in, then Dan (who lost his right) would have had to be so that the number was still 12. Dan, however, gave up that right when "he" refused to CLAIM it... but instead gave it to the Assyrians.
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000 - Joseph is not normally mentioned as a tribe, his sons Manasseh and Ephraim are normally mentioned as two tribes (Gen 48:5),
This is because Joseph, as Rachel's (Jacob's true wife) firstborn, received the firstborn's "double share". It should have gone to Rueben but he lost it by sleeping with Bilhah, Rachel's maidservant and mother to Dan and Naphtali. Bilhah was, for all intents and purposes, a "wife" of Jacob and thus, Rueben violated Jacob when he slept with his father's wife. Even though the Law Code had not been written yet it was considered a sin... not only against Jacob, but against God. (Genesis 49:4; Levitucus 18:8).
however Ephraim went into idolatry and is not mentioned here as did Dan who is not mentioned, idolaters are excluded from the New Jerusalem (Rev 22:15).
They ALL went into idolatry, dear one. They ALL worshipped the golden calf and called it "JaHVeH." MANY in the 10-tribe kingdom of Israel worshipped Baal. The erected "high places" for false worship everywhere and took on worship of the gods of the peoples around them.
Joseph is a type of Christ, there is nothing bad mentioned about him in scripture. Both Joseph and Christ were unjustly tried, Joseph was unjustly charged with trying to rape Potiphar's wife (Gen 39:1-20). Both suffered, Joseph in prison and Jesus on the cross. Both were later crowned with glory and honour (Gen 41:39-45, Heb 2:9).
Even more: both were put in a position second only to one. Both were given ALL of the authority of the one who conferred such position upon them. Both were the "way" to the one above them - you could not get to Pharaoh without going through Joseph; you cannot get to God without going through Christ. You could not receive from Pharaoh's storehouses, and thus be fed, eat and LIVE... unless you went through Joseph, who had the authority to dispense grain to you and your household. You can not receive from God's storehouse, and thus be fed, eat, and LIVE... unless you go through Christ, who has the authority to dispense "food" (at the proper time)... which "food" is God's holy spirit... to you or your household. You symbolize "receiving" that "food"... by "eating" the "flesh" of Christ, the unleavened bread. Joseph actually represents Christ... he who had the Law written on his HEART, before it was ever written on stone.
The census thus reveals Christ as the firstborn, it includes the priests together with Joseph as a type of Christ, all have been ransomed, but there are no idolaters in it; it is the church of the redeemed.
Christ is not IN the census, dear one; he is the Greater MOSES... and thus, the one who FILLS the census number:
"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last."
He is the [Greater Solomon] who is BUILDING the City/church:
"Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days. ... the temple he had spoken of was his body."
"Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you?"
"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day."
"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."
"Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
I understand how it is to want to be able to say "I have the truth about these things," dear aqwsed12345. It is one of the reasons most go into the WTBTS - they say that have the truth and such ones want to have it, too. However, one can only have the illusion of truth... unless one is given it by the Holy Spirit. When we receive it from him, versus leaning upon our own understanding, we don't have to speculate or make things "fit"... either into what religion has taught us or what scholars, commentators, or others opine.
Again, I bid you peace, truly, and ears... if you truly wish them... so as to hear when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:
"Come! Take 'life's water'... which is the spirit of God, holy spirit... by means of which His Son and Christ, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, and my Lord... JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... can lead you, too... into ALL truth... FREE!"
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
