Watchtower contradicts the Bible on HELL

by brotherdan 40 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan
    You might try reading a bit of the Mishnah....you might be surprised how "pharisaic" Jesus really was.

    I have read many Jewish texts including the complete restatement of oral law (Mishneh Talmud).

    Jesus was not ANTI-Jew. But the Jews allowed man-made thinking to encroach in on their theology (see the...MISHNEH!)

    (like another group that I know).

    The became legalistic. Jesus was NOT pharisaic. Not in any way.

    I'm not anti-jew either. But I realize that there are a lot of things that the Jews have wrong, one of them being their rejection of Jesus. But I believe that they are God's people for eternity and will have an opportunity to come back to God once Jesus returns.

    But that's a HUGE topic...and not one to be talked about in a thread about the Watchtowers dishonesty in arguing against hell.

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    OBVES, if you go and learn hermeneutics you will be able to discern when to take accounts as allegory, metephor, or literal. You need to educate yourself in these areas. They are absolutely necessary. We cannot just haphazardly take an account and decide that it's allegorical or metephorical just because we want it to be.

  • sir82
    sir82
    Jesus was NOT pharisaic.

    So say many closed-minded Christian fundamentalists.

    They (Jesus & the Pharisees) had a lot more in common that you have apparently discerned from your readings.

    Anyways, all this is off topic. I'll stop hijacking now.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I would add that your point about Revelation 20:14 is a good example of flawed hermeneutics. It embodies a proof by example fallacy ("I know that x, which is a member of group X, has the property P. Therefore, all other elements of X have the property P") which uses the passage as a "proof text" in order to render the notion of eschatological torment as necessarily figurative or allegorical elsewhere on account of how it is used in this single example. The notion of eschatological torment by fire occurs frequently outside this single passage, and in many sources predating Revelation, and in many cases it is clearly NOT figurative (such as martyrs experiencing very real torture being reminded of the everlasting torture they might experience if they submit, or the description of the places of Gehenna and Sheol in the context of a geographical description of the far places of the earth). It is a well-attested concept in the literature of Second Temple Judaism which has the same eschatological "reality" as the other apocalyptic notions it was packaged with (e.g. resurrection, divine judgment, reward of eternal life to the righteous), yet I don't recall quite as much effort to spiritualize away these other concepts. In Revelation 20:14 we have an instance of this notion being extended to a personified "Death and Hades" (cf. "Its rider was named Death and Hades was following close behind him" in 6:8, cf. the "keys of Death and Hades" versus the "key of David" in 1:18, 3:7); the personification of Death and Hades faciliates a figurative (yes figurative!) extension of the concept from persons to personified entities, unless we have here a hendiadys pertaining to an actual personal figure (cf. the personage of Death in the Testament of Abraham who comes to the patriarch to claim his life). This extension to personified entities is exceptional and is limited to this single text. It does not disqualify or preempt the notion of eschatological torment otherwise to persons, and it does not govern the overall concept found elsewhere.

    So in the parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25), what are figurative are the symbols of sheep and goats used to designate the two groups of people who have very different destinies. The reward of eternal life in the kingdom for the righteous is complementary to the eternal punishment in eternal fire for the wicked. It is special pleading to treat the latter as figurative, symbolic, etc. and not the former. (Perhaps the righteous don't literally have eternal life, but rather live on in the memories of those who remember them?) The Watchtower Society recognizes the parallelism here and tries to avoid the problem by redefining the meaning of kolasin "punishment" in a most strained manner (as "cutting-off" in an appeal to the etymological fallacy, ignoring usage here).

  • OBVES
    OBVES

    Please use common sense here ! Suppose you are unsaved person and the time is short so you are waiting for that day when you will be cast intp the hellfire and tormented eternally without respite for, say ,40 or 50 years of life in sins !

    No wonder God will destroy so many people for their lack of common sense in this matter.

    It is clear soul that sins it shall die - Ezekiel 18.4.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    I agree it doesn't make much sense. There is a lot in Judaism and Christianity that one could tear apart with simple logic. That doesn't mean it wasn't a matter of belief. A lot of what was believed in early Judaism and Christianity did not depend on common sense.

    Please recognize the difference here between what you are doing and what I am doing. I am describing what people did believe, you are prescribing what you think people should believe. That's the difference. I have no belief in hell. But it would not be intellecutally honest for me to claim that eternal punishment of the wicked wasn't a part of Second Temple eschatology when in fact it was a big part of it.

  • Perry
    Perry

    Leoalia,

    What is illogical about Christianity? I have seen nothing illogical about it. Is naturalism logical to you?

    Obves

    Ezekiel 18: 4 has been covered many times here on this forumn. If a person has a naturalistic worldview of death, then the definition of death becomes totally different than the definition of death in the bible.... which btw simply means the separation of the body from the soul and spirit.

    "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season," - Rev. 6: 9-11

    The above shows dead souls complaining to God. Ezekiel 18: 4 simply means that the soul that sins will be separated from its body of flesh. The watchtower churns up a strange brew of a mixture of naturalism and idolatry. It's hard to get rid of even after leaving.

  • Perry
    Perry

    The rich man in the account of Lazuras was very uncomfortable in hell, but somewhere short of screaming. Other scriptures speak of "outer darkness" for the unsaved. Hitler and his crew who burned millions in ovens may have a more active role in the flames as no doubt the unsaved women and their enabling male counterparts who consented to chemically burn and chop babies in their womb during their abortions will be.

    God is the judge of ALL, he cannot "not Judge" or else he gives up his position as God. If a part of a person can be separtaed at death, (as I personally know absolutely to be true) then what a person does with Jesus in this life becomes extremely important.

    If God does not judge and punish, then he is the ultimate enabler. And THAT is perfectly logical.

  • whereami
    whereami

    "God is not against burning wicked people alive".

    Well isn't that just great. He sounds like a great guy. You say that as if it's a good thing.

    "never intended for Isaac to be killed, but merely wished to see if Abraham would obey".

    Again, such a great quality this so called "loving" god has. Makes me just wanna tear up with joy.

    "If God does not judge and punish, then he is the ultimate enabler. And THAT is perfectly logical".

    Yeah... makes a TON of sense. Very logical indeed.

  • clarity
    clarity

    "The soul that is sinning it itself will die"...not fry, is a cute play on words used by jw's. The many numbers of scripture though, that speak of fire, burning, eternal damnation and punishment, makes one pause and go .... hhmmmm.

    Personally, just the words alone, used to describe punishment, - burning hell - lake burning with fire and sulpher - eternal torture - slain -avenge, - leaves me feeling sick.

    Whether or not there is torture in a burning hell, these words are so repugnant to me. Where do these descriptions come from?? Could a loving parent ever think up such cruel things to tell their child? Do we keep our children in line with such horrible threats, whether true or not? I am a Christian. Maybe the watchtower's take on hell is not a contradition of the bible! I don't know, but those words are still there.

    clarity

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