JC question: Do you accept the FDS as God's organization?

by MrMonroe 50 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • MrMonroe

    My wife and I had stopped going to meetings in April; in December of that year we travelled interstate and stayed with the Witness couple who had "brought me into the truth". We had already told them we'd quit meetings and there was a certain tension in the air for the first couple of days until Sunday morning, when, over a breakfast that eventually lasted several hours, they began to interrogate us about WHY we had left. Had we been stumbled? It's not about the people, you know! Well, we said, that's our private decision. We left, we're not going back, but we'd rather not discuss our reasons.

    It was a session I described in my diary as the Breakfast Grill. They told me there was a Watchtower that very day was addressed at our very situation, about how Jesus cares for his lost sheep, and they assured me that when we returned to Melbourne, we would surely have contact from our old congregation. Stirred up by the timely article, those loving, concerned brothers would definitiely inquire after our spiritual wellbeing. If he was a gambling man, he'd put money on it. Rubbish, I told them. They'll attend the Watchtower study, answer the questions and give us no thought at all. It's a Watchtower study, just words on a page. That's the way it is. I didn't want them to visit in any case: we'd made a definite decision to leave, based on very firm grounds.

    And so on they went, hour after hour, tears in their eyes as they grieved for our loss. OUR loss! But then there was curious question.

    He looked my wife in the eye and asked her,

    "Do you believe Jehovah is using the faithful and discreet slave as his organisation on earth?”

    My wife paused. How the hell do you answer that question? The answer, of course, was , No, absolutely not. I jumped in and deflected and quickly the question was forgotten.

    But I've never forgotten that question. Why did he ask it? It's a loaded question, a bit like a Witness being asked by a householder, "Do you accept the divinity of Christ, yes or no?" Well, there's a trap, because it depends on your definition.

    His question assumes several things:

    1. God has an organization (which is an interpretation peculiar to the Witnesses).

    2. If he does have one, it is the Watch Tower Society. (Please God, no!)

    3. The faithful and discreet slave is more than just a figure in a parable: it is a "class" of Christians as Russell decided. (Again, among all religions, only the Witnesses have decided that parabolic figure represents a group of Christians who would be represented in the last days).

    4. If the Watch Tower Society is indeed God's organization, the faithful and discreet slave "class" actually plays a role. (There is no evidence that those 11,200 self-professed anointed scattered throughout the globe play any role in the formation of doctrine or direction of the beliefs or activities of Witnesses. As Ray Franz pointed out, they mean nothing, zilch, to the Governing Body).

    So why did he ask it? Did someone suggest it to him? Reading threads on this forum, and listening to the recordings at the Death or Obedience blog, it seems this is a question commonly asked at judicial committees. I searched in the "Shepherd the Flock of God" book for a suggestion that elders ask the question, and couldn't find it. Is there some unwritten convention that elders ask that question of those they suspect are apostates, searching for the evidence that would allow them to disfellowship them? Because answering in the negative is an immediate confession that one is no longer a believer, no longer under the spell of the Watch Tower Society.

    Have you ever been asked that question? Do elders share it among themselves as the $64,000 question? Why did he ask it?

  • Black Sheep
    Black Sheep

    That is the primary doctrine. All doctrine, although portrayed as being 'bible based, is supported by that doctrine.

    If you don't believe it, they are stuck with proving their doctrines from the Bible and a host of out of context quotes and quotes from dubious sources.

    I turn the question around on them.... When were they selected??? How do you work that out??? Sources please??? etc..

  • 3Mozzies

    Mr Monroe, thanks for sharing that story. It's so typical when JW friends find out you have left, they just can not understand how someone can leave THE ONLY TRUE religion!!!! ('true religion' is an oxymoron if I ever I heard one)

    I had the same thing happen to me and yes that question sure is a loaded one!

    I loved the way you explained how that question assumes several things, I think you are so spot on my friend. If you say 'no' to that question you pretty much have just hang yourself. It's the same as saying you don't believe in Jehovah God!

    I did have an elder just simple ask me out right a few times "If I no longer wanted to be JW?" He sure sounded like he just wanted to hear me say 'yes' to that so he can wipe his hands of me...

    BTW: I have received your PM & will email tomorrow.


  • wobble

    That is what is known as the "Loyalty" question, we all get asked it at some point when two witnesses are present to report what you said in reply. They think it is an easy way to get you to admit that you are an Apostate.

    there are several ways of replying depending on what result you want, the one I would dearly love to give, and maybe will if ever it is thrown at me again is,

    "Of course not, they have proved they are not " result: immediate DF'ing.

  • cantleave

    I was asked it on Thursday by the elders that visited me. I did not give a direct answer, but my demeanour said it all.

  • Broken Promises
    Broken Promises

    Mr Monroe is also 3Mozzies? Or is 3Mozzies a mod?

  • DJPoetech

    i discussed this with my folks a couple of days ago.

    First off, everyone at home seems to think my decision to leave is due to some momentary lapse of judgement that will be corrected soon enough by "Jehovah". So my explanations and scriptural support falls upon deaf ears because I apparently have had a mental break. Its patronizing and I hate it.

    Anyway, anytime a deep point was made, like Mat 24 was a parable and not prophetic, it was over shadowed by some other issue that didn't relate directly with that. It was like their brains wouldn't critically think. I have flat out told them how I disagree with the interpretation.

    My parents are amazing thinkers and don't follow the doctrine 100% because they disagree with the shunning principle. That is why its hard for me to figure out why they cant think further outside the box.

    @black sheep: You are right, the FDS is the primary scripture used but it is a house built on sand. It is a parable. The context of the scripture gives it away. We even sat there and read the whole Chapter. Interestingly my mom was holding her watchtower notes and relating unrelated information.

  • Robert7

    My wife had a similar situation... She was on the phone with a friend, and mentioned her struggles and doubts, and within minutes of the conversation the girl says "So do you still say you are one of Jehovah's Witnesses?".

    WTF? No love, no comfort, just a hard-lined question to see where you stand.

    JW's are trained to avoid any doubt or people with doubts, so questions like these I think make it easier for them to immediately shun you.

    There is not true love in the organization.

  • TrueScript

    If you accept the scriptures still, you could indeed answer yes to the above, while meaning something entirely different. Biblically, any faithful Christian would be the FDS, and all faithful Christians would constitute God's organization, whatever that might be.

    Also, I would point out that the Insight book even calls the parable of the FDS a parable, so they have little room for disputing that. In light of that, it might be worthwhile to ask why it is insisted they be called that instead of the faithful virgins or something.

  • Ding

    If you say "no," I think that makes you "an apostate."

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