Another question about the Governing Body

by dgp 38 Replies latest jw friends

  • james_woods
    james_woods
    You won't find Paul advocating shunning or anything liek that ANYWHERE else nor find him or any other apostle saying to shun anyone in any general outlines.
    And, fare more importantly, you will NOT find anywhere that Jesus advocate anything of the sort.

    And, to take this further - you will NOT find anywhere that Paul, the Apostles, or Jesus advocated a "governing body" to legislate the christian church. Both DFing and the GB (and for that matter, door-to-door book selling) are non-biblical and inventions of the Watchtower using out of context bible verses to support totally new 20th century doctrinal inventions.

  • Botzwana
    Botzwana

    Paul pointed out that the church must explain to this person what he is doing wrong and IF he understands that what he is doing is wrong and continues to do so, that they should send him on his way and not deal with him at all.

    I have no idea if I am doing this right. I am trying to put the above text into a quote box. When you say not deal with him at all, does that not mean shunning. To have no dealings with someone.... What else could it mean?

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento
    I have no idea if I am doing this right. I am trying to put the above text into a quote box. When you say not deal with him at all, does that not mean shunning. To have no dealings with someone.... What else could it mean?

    It meant no social dealings with him at all ( hence the meal example) but you may be missing the point, it was a very specific recommendation ( not a commandment) and it was Paul's personal opinion. You will note that you will not find any writings of Jesus or any other apostles saying such a thing.

    It was targeted at a specific circumstance and was not a "general remark for church policy".

    In all the other writings if Paul you will not see him tell anyone to do this ever again, it just is nOT there.

    You can't take what Paul said about a specfifc situation and for a specififc person and make it a general rule or doctrine, Paul didn't preach it and you will NOT find evidence of it in the NT.

    Jesus preached forgiveness and accepteance and compassion and tolerance and NEVER turned anyone away or sent anyone away.

  • Botzwana
    Botzwana

    Yes Jesus preached forgiveness etc. But was not Paul handpicked by Jesus himself? Aren't Paul's words to have major impact as well? If you think it's a personal opinion then how can anyone take anything Paul says any other way? Either it's his personal opinion, or it's holy spirit. Which is it?

  • sir82
    sir82

    As has been noted above, Paul wrote one paragraph in one letter to one congregation which had one issue with one man.

    The Watchtower Society has extrapolated an entire procedural policy based on that one paragraph.

    Terms and concepts you will not find anywhere in the Bible (hey if it's a valid argument for the word "trinity" it ought to work here too):

    -- Disfellowshipping

    -- Judicial Committee

    -- Appeal

    -- Restrictions

    -- Reinstatement Procedure

    -- Public reproof

    -- Private reproof

    -- Disassociation

    -- "...is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses"

  • Botzwana
    Botzwana

    Sir82, But didn't David talk about it too? Those that hide what they are I do not come in etc. So you have two Bible writers talking about the same thing.

  • sir82
    sir82

    There a huge difference between David making a personal decision that he himself would not associate with certain other Israelites,

    vs.

    Enforced shunning of family members. Enforced coercion to behave a certain way ("refuse that blood transfusion, or else besides God hating you, all your friends and family will never speak to you again").

    It's not so much the principle of shunning, it's the enforcement and coercion.

    "Shun your son / daughter / aunt / uncle, avoid all but the most vital 'family business', or every friend and family member you have ever known will shun you too".

    The Watchtower Society has said that Paul's words at 2 Corinthinians chapter 2 were written in reference to the sinner Paul condemned in his first letter:

    2 Corinthians 2
    1 So I made up my mind that I would not make another painful visit to you. 2 For if I grieve you, who is left to make me glad but you whom I have grieved? 3 I wrote as I did, so that when I came I would not be distressed by those who should have made me rejoice. I had confidence in all of you, that you would all share my joy. 4 For I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to grieve you but to let you know the depth of my love for you.
    5 If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6 The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient. 7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.

    That phrase "by the majority" also appears in the New World Translation.

    You can look thru every index ever published by the WTS - you'll never find one explanation of why Paul used those words.

    Hoewever, the implication is quite clear: If the majority "inflicted punishment" on the man, clearly a minority did not.

    Even assuming (a large leap) that Paul had in mind something like what the JWs currently practice in their disfellowshipping procedures: Where are Paul's words of condemnation for that minority?

    They aren't there. Even assuming (a large leap) that Paul had in mind something as harsh and rigid as the JW interpretation of his words, he never had any intention that it be forced, upon pain of identical punishment, upon all members of the congregation.

  • sir82
    sir82

    Another point:

    What did Paul write?

    "Quit mixing in company with anyone who is a fornicator, idolator, etc." - present tense

    What did David write?

    "I do not sit with those who hide what they are..." - present tense

    Compared to current JW policy:

    Even one sin, weeks, months or years in the past, can be grounds for disfellowshipping. If you can't prove to the 3 men sitting in the little room that you have repented, they bounce you. Doesn't matter if you are not a "practicer" of the sin, doesn't matter if you really have repented - do it once, don't satisfy 3 men of your sincerity, and out you go.

    Where is the Bible principle that is based on?

    Not to mention the impossibility of 3 men somehow determining the "degree of repentence" of someone else - but I've derailed this thread's topic enough already....

  • Sayswho
    Sayswho

    Sir82...

    Fantastic reasoning...That's what I have to say!!! It's amazing how we do not look or see what we are reading or being taught...we just take whatever point is being made by the Org as fact.

  • pirata
    pirata

    Botzwana,

    Please consider the scriptures below. What was Jesus instructions/example in regards to this matter? Who are the apostles saying to avoid (esp. note the presence of "antichrist" and "anyone called a brother")? To what extent were they to avoid? Would most non-christians fit the definition of antichrist?

    (Matthew 18:15-17) “Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.

    (Matthew 9:9-13) Next, while passing along from there, Jesus caught sight of a man named Matthew seated at the tax office, and he said to him: “Be my follower.” Thereupon he did rise up and follow him. 10 Later, while he was reclining at the table in the house, look! many tax collectors and sinners came and began reclining with Jesus and his disciples. 11 But on seeing this the Pharisees began to say to his disciples: “Why is it that YOUR teacher eats with tax collectors and sinners?” 12 Hearing [them], he said: “Persons in health do not need a physician, but the ailing do. 13 Go, then, and learn what this means, ‘I want mercy, and not sacrifice.’ For I came to call, not righteous people, but sinners.”

    (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”

    (Romans 16:17) Now I exhort YOU, brothers, to keep your eye on those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that YOU have learned, and avoid them.

    (Titus 3:10) As for a man that promotes a sect,reject him after a first and a second admonition;

    (2 Corinthians 2:5-6) Now if anyone has caused sadness M , [for cross reference, see next verse] he has saddened, not me, but all of YOU to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say. 6 This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man,

    ( M 1 Corinthians 5:1) . . .Actually fornication is reported among YOU, and such fornication as is not even among the nations, that a wife a certain [man] has of [his] father.

    (2 John 7-11) For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Look out for yourselves, that YOU do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that YOU may obtain a full reward. 9 Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.

    (1 John 2:22) Who is the liar if it is not the one that denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one that denies the Father and the Son.

    (2 Thessalonians 3:6-15) Now we are giving YOU orders, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition YOU received from us. 7 For YOU yourselves know the way YOU ought to imitate us, because we did not behave disorderly among YOU… 11 For we hear certain ones are walking disorderly among YOU, not working at all but meddling with what does not concern them.… 14 But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. 15 And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother.

    (Luke 6:27-37) “But I say to YOU who are listening, Continue to love YOUR enemies, to do good to those hating YOU, 28 to bless those cursing YOU, to pray for those who are insulting YOU. 29 To him that strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also; and from him that takes away your outer garment, do not withhold even the undergarment…31 “Also, just as YOU want men to do to YOU, do the same way to them…36 Continue becoming merciful, just as YOUR Father is merciful. 37 “Moreover, stop judging, and YOU will by no means be judged; and stop condemning, and YOU will by no means be condemned. Keep on releasing, and YOU will be released.

    (1 Corinthians 4:6) Now, brothers, these things I have transferred so as to apply to myself and A·pol´los for YOUR good, that in our case YOU may learn the [rule]:Do not go beyond the things that are written,” in order that YOU may not be puffed up individually in favor of the one against the other.

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