How do YOU view salvation? 2 Stories

by brotherdan 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    Just to be clear and not get in trouble by "SOMEONE" on this board, some of what I want to say in this post is adapted from a sermon from Dallas Willard. It's in my own words, but I don't want anyone telling me to beg God for forgiveness for "stealing" someone elses work by posting it on a forum.

    Basically there are 2 ways of viewing the issue of salvation. I wanted to bring it up because I've seen so many people on this board that are bitter and say that God murdered his own son, killed men, women, and children, and is responsible for the suffering of billions. Here are the 2 different ways to view the story of what God has done to/for/with mankind.

    FIRST STORY:

    In the first story God creates two naked people without belly buttons and places them in a garden. It's not really clear why he decides to do this, but the good news is that they are naked and told to fill the earth!

    One day while taking a break from multiplying and naming the animals, the woman, influenced by a talking snake, tricks the man into taking a bite from some fruit. All hell breaks loose! God is surprised and gets extremely angry! He curses them - every puppy, kitty, and doe eyed child - the entire universe and each of the seven billion-plus and counting descendants who will follow.

    Through thousands of years God stews in his wrath. He writes down a few instructions and occasionally sends out a plague, prophet, or flood to keep people in line. But mostly he just sits around on a throne with an angry and bitter look on his face, and scowls down through the glass bottom of heaven as he thinks up new ways to make humans behave. The finally, when he can take it no more, he sends his own Son to be tortured and then brutally murdered. There are alot of theories about WHY God's Son had to die, but bottom line is...it caused God to feel a whole lot better about things and helped him to decide that anyone who hears about what Jesus did and says a magic phrase will once again get to live forever and enjoy a paradise. And for those that don't say these words? They will burn in flames for all eternity.

    SECOND STORY:

    In the second story, God exists as a loving community of three whose relationship is so joyful, pulsating, and vibrant that it has best been described as a dance.

    God decides that this is all too wonderful to keep to himself. So he creates an entire universe and tenderly places humanity at the center, like the offspring of pround parents brought home to a nursery.

    Then God does something even more amazing. He plants within the human heart a small but glorious piece of himself. Under his watchful eye these two creatures grow into beings who will become as much like God as possible. They are to join the dance, and become partners with Him.

    But the very first 2 people make a fatal decision. They decide that they can live unplugged from the Tree of Life - the presence and energy of God - and can, in fact, be God THEMSELVES.

    God is not surprised - he saw this day coming even as he was knitting them together. You can't surprise someone who lives outside the boundareis of time. He is not angry. He does, however, become very sad as separation of the reality of free will play out before his eyes.

    He sets in motion a series of plans to woo us back home, refusing to give up on his original plan to be a nurturing parent to his precious children, showing them how to grow their character until it mirrors his own.

    Through thousands of years God becomes the prodigal Father, standing by his driveway, straining his neck waiting for his children to come home. He sends cards and letters in the form of patriarchs and prophets with the same message: "Your inheritance is waiting; the promises can still be cashed. Come home! I want you! I want to teach you this beautiful dance!"

    But when it becomes clear that we will not come home for longer than a brief visit, God can wait no longer. He empties himself of his divine dignity, and wades into the murk and sits down in the mire alongside us, His prodigal children. He becomes as much like us as possible for a while so that we can learn to be like Him forever.

    Jesus brings the good news that the doors to the kingdom are wide open and that God still wants us to join the dance, and to become as one with them as they are with each other.

    To show the extent of how he desires this, he inhales death and separation from himself and shows through the gruesome image of crucifixtion what it looks like to freely die to all that is separate from the will of God. And then he demonstrates through his resurrection that he knows what he's talking about.

    But that is not all. He sends the Holy Spirit with music and a dance chart so that we can learn how to waltz with God. He shows that we can do so EVEN NOW, as we wait for the real party to start.

    Sadly, many Christians and Agnostics view the 1st story as more correct. They are missing out entirely on the beauty and current reality of God's promise.

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    I'm not bitter at any imaginary people.

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    Sorry...maybe shouldn't have included "Agnostics" in the post. It's just for people that believe the bible but talk about it as if they are disturbed by what they find there and blame God for everything that they don't like inside.

  • undercover
    undercover
    Through thousands of years God becomes the prodigal Father, standing by his driveway, straining his neck waiting for his children to come home. He sends cards and letters in the form of patriarchs and prophets with the same message: "Your inheritance is waiting; the promises can still be cashed. Come home! I want you! I want to teach you this beautiful dance!"

    It might have been more convincing if he had brought the message himself so that I knew he really wanted me to come back. But since he used proxies I can only assume he's too busy to really give a shit...

    ...and Darth Vader was really Luke's father...

  • Deputy Dog
    Deputy Dog

    brotherdan

    No offense, but, I like the bible account better. I don't see either of those views.

    God is not surprised - he saw this day coming even as he was knitting them together. You can't surprise someone who lives outside the boundareis of time. He is not angry...

    I don't believe God reacts to us. We react to Him

    He sets in motion a series of plans to woo us back home, refusing to give up on his original plan to be a nurturing parent to his precious children, showing them how to grow their character until it mirrors his own.

    That plan was set into motion before the foundation of the world. Not as a reation to mans sin.

    Eph 1:4

    even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    So if the president of the United States does not DIRECTLY come to your house to tell you about the taxes he wants to save you, he doesn't REALLY care about you?

    If you understand the Trinity, God DID come himself and let you know that he cares for you. He also sends His Holy Spirit on ANYONE that requests it. So He not only comes to you, but He LIVES in you!

    Sounds silly to unbelievers. But it's an amazing thing to experience.

  • undercover
    undercover
    So if the president of the United States does not DIRECTLY come to your house to tell you about the taxes he wants to save you, he doesn't REALLY care about you?

    That's a terrible analogy... just horrible.

    First of all, despite the claims of some of his admirers, the president is not omnipotent. The president doesn't have the capability of listening to my prayers... or answering them. Hell, I bet he doesn't know how many hairs I have on my head... or know all the names of the stars in the heavens.

    Second, in answer to your question: No, he doesn't give a shit about me personally. He's supposed to uphold the Constitution which may or may not be in my personal best interests depending on what I want. More cynically, he's concerned more with staying in power and keeping his party in power. He'll placate (kiss ass) to the masses to keep them fooled into thinking he's there for them, but it's all a delusion...much like believing in God.

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    Touchet' on the bad illustration. But Jesus DID come to show his concern, asks us to talk to Him every day, and offers us the Holy Spirit ANYTIME we need it.

    So HE DOES care for you. Even when you don't care for Him.

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    The second story seems nicer than the first but it too goes awry right after this:

    Then God does something even more amazing. He plants within the human heart a small but glorious piece of himself. Under his watchful eye these two creatures grow into beings who will become as much like God as possible. They are to join the dance, and become partners with Him.

    This almost posits the imminence of God but stops short (as all Christian stories I have ever seen do) and so the rest of the story fails, even as metaphor.

    God didn't create beings separate from himself, as the Borg and other denominations teach, not even to place part of himself inside.

    I still don't grok in fullness so I can't really explain where this leads but I am sure someone else shares this view of imminence and realizes that thou art god in a way that can be put into a post.

    (note: my opinion on all this is still in flux and subject to change)

  • undercover
    undercover
    But Jesus DID come to show his concern, asks us to talk to Him every day, and offers us the Holy Spirit ANYTIME we need it. So HE DOES care for you.

    Proof? Aside from the fairy tale book?

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