The Problem of Evil --- The Dilemma

by LoneWolf 19 Replies latest jw friends

  • LoneWolf
    LoneWolf

    TyyDyy --- Never would I say that. Instead, I am saying that physical intervention such as that is one of the least effective methods of protecting her.

    What about when you are not there? What if you die or are accidentally killed before she is on her own? NOTHING is as effective as a close trusting relationship where she can feel free to come to you with all of her problems and concerns. She needs a sounding board that she can test her doubts on without the worry of being judged or having it presumed that her questions stem from evil motives.

    That little girl has a good head on her shoulders. Feed her knowledge and understanding as she is ready for it, and not on some schedule where you end up force-feeding. When she sees your own honesty, even with your own faults and weaknesses; when she sees you stand for what's right, even when it's not popular even with her; when she sees your selflessness in dealing with her mother and her as well as others, THAT will build your confidence and credibility in her eyes and the things you teach her will have weight.

    When she does make mistakes, don't blow up. Remember that your job is not to raise perfect kids. It is to raise healthy ones that will survive, and one of the most important lessons you could teach her is how to deal with the mistakes that she will inevitability make, WITHOUT having endless guilt trips about them. If you yell at her, she will (figuratively) yell at herself. Many commit suicide because they think they are not perfect enough.

    tyydyy, I am not perfect and I'll be the first to tell you that I don't know everything. But I can honestly tell you this: At the ages of 15 and 16, my two oldest girls went alone to Montreal, Canada and spent 9 months there on their own studying French and attending the Pioneer School in French after they learned it. They were so successful in their endeavors that they were invited to give their experiences at the assembly. They did. That's 3,000 miles from home.

    Montreal is a melting pot and a pretty wide open town. You can imagine the mischief they could have gotten into if they so desired.

    Build on her a battlement of silver. Don't block her up with a cedar plank. (Song of Solomon 8:9) Then watch her respond with joy and integrity.

    Perhaps you can read between the lines as to how much I care about this. Indeed, I have tears in my eyes as I write. Can you imagine having them trust you so much that they come to you asking for help in getting a bra that fits? I've had that happen.

    LoneWolf

  • LoneWolf
    LoneWolf

    Help!! You guys are getting ahead of me!

    I'm tired and need some sleep. See you tomorrow.

    LoneWolf

  • LoneWolf
    LoneWolf

    tyydyy ---

    Yes! In fact, everything stemmed from the same source at one point. If my brother was a murderer, that wouldn't make me a murderer just because I had the same source. There are many reasons for why people do bad things and I cannot accept that the reason is some big bad spirit named Satan made them do it.
    I agree, to a point. However, I am speaking of something else. Perhaps I can illustrate it by comparing it again to the art world. In determining things about the artist, one does not judge individual brush strokes or even the technique used. One looks for the more subtle things, like what types of things that are usually portrayed and how they are rendered. Are they constantly negative? Are the colors used more somber than bright or the other way around? Are they particular about detail, or do slide over the details and go for a general overview? Such things tell you something.

    In this case, how could a god be the author of the love in a woman's eyes, the frolicking of baby kittens, the beauty of the flowers, and the exquiste design of the universe --- and also be the author of the hideous things we see around us? He would have to be schizoid.

    If we wish to believe in a god at all, why is it so hard to take his word for it that he has an enemy?

    Frenchy ---

    We are getting into areas here that could easily fill an entire chapter if not a book.
    Isn't that the case! Want to help me fill it?

    Yes, trust must be earned. Sadly, all to many times it is earned but not acknowledged or credited. That is extremely destructive to relationships.

    LoneWolf

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    :::In this case, how could a god be the author of the love in a woman's eyes, the frolicking of baby kittens, the beauty of the flowers, and the exquiste design of the universe --- and also be the author of the hideous things we see around us? He would have to be schizoid.:::

    It would appear that a number of OT writers, (Job is an example of one) had the view that God sent evil as well as good toward men. From my readings of the Bible I see nothing from God to correct that view they had of him but that does not necessarily mean that they were correct in that assumption.

    I do not think that evil is necssary for humans to be happy BUT I do believe that evil is and has been necessary to teach us that goodness comes at a price and that goodness is not automatic. In the process of teaching us something about ourselves and what we are and are not willing to do and/or sacrifice for that good (not only for oneself but the overall good for all of humanity) it teaches us that God is not automatically good either. It teaches us that God is good as a result of sacrifices and concessions and a constant vigilance and effort on his part.

    What we humans want is to never suffer while at the same time be free to practice whatever it is that our heart contrives or imagines. We want free freedom. By far and large the greater number of Bible critics (in my experience) are those that are unwilling to accept its moral code and/or other obligations either directly stated in Scripture or implied by principles stated therein. By far and large it is people who profess not to believe in God who mock him and point to the atrocities in the world as justification for not believing in him. The beauties and wonders are chalked up to blind, random forces at work with no intelligent reasoning behind them ...but the wonders and beauties are accidents. I dare say I have a greater problem accepting the latter than accepting the concept of their being a God who, for reasons he has yet to reval to us, allows terrible things to happen.

    Evil is not a creation of God but rather the result of what happens when goodness is not present much like darkness is the absence of light, not the other way around. In fact, there is not such THING as darkness, it's only the absence of light. Evil is the absence of goodness.

    I allowed my children to experience many unpleasant things in order for them to learn to deal with the more serious things which could cause permanent and irreversible damage. What many fail to realize is that when dealing with God, nothing is irreversible for him. He is the king of eternity and he is omnipotent. The gift of making choices evidently comes only with the full knowledge of the responsibilities associated with it. We want to have our cake and eat it too. We want freedom to make whatever choices we want without anyone (especially God) telling us what to do and at the same time we want it all to end well. I know a couple of people like that. They are constantly getting themselves into a pickle and then the scream for help. As soon as they are extricated from their self-made mire they take off on another tangent and will scoff at any and all advice that they are again headed for yet more trouble.

    God does not make the perverts that rape young children. Free choice allows that to happen. Some use it more responsibly than others. God is not to be blamed for how the gift is used.

    There are evil things which happen that have nothing to do with people's choices and are thus not to be attributed to that factor. Those things are like the weeds that come up in a garden. No one planted them there and they are not there because someone wanted them there. Weeds happen when the gardener is not diligent in his maintenance of the garden, in the absence of his 'good' work. Evil happens in the world when the forces of good are not being applied in a certain area. The lesson? Good must be ever vigilant in ALL things because evil will encroach upon ANY and ALL areas of our world where good does not specifically reside.

  • JT
    JT

    Repost

    just a few thoughts

    #################################################################################Posted by Farkel [Keflar] on August 26, 2000 at 13:50:21 {hOVTmOYbDkjc7.1TE24IvhKqcjatLo}:
    WARNING!! Those of you with tender religious sensibilities should NOT read this post. Only those of you with the thickest of skins should proceed. This is going to get ugly…

    God gets bored. He decides to make some creatures to keep him company. After a while, they all get bored, too. God says, “Hey let’s make some mortal creatures and mess them all up.” They all agree that is a good idea, so God creates two humans.

    “First thing we have to do is give them a test they couldn’t possibly pass, and then mess them up when they fail it,” God declares. So God says (in effect) to the two humans, “Look, you both are pretty stupid, but there’s a tree over there that will give you all the knowledge of good and bad that you need to know. There’s only one minor problem.

    The day you eat from it, I’ll kill you.”
    So the couple obeyed him. After a while, God becomes bored again, and says, “They’re NOT eating from that tree. What should I do? This is boring.” One of his companions says, “Why don’t you trick them into eating from it?”

    God says, “Good idea! Let it be done.” One of the companions decided that he could trick one of them by using a talking animal, so he picked a snake. One of the other companions said, “You moron! Snakes don’t even have vocal cords!” The first one replies, “No problem. I’ll use ventriloquism. They’re pretty dumb. They’ll think it is actually the snake that is talking.”

    So the “talking” snake tricks the woman and the woman convinces the man to also eat from the tree. When they both discovered they were then in deep doo-doo with God, they declared, “Hey, we have SEX organs! We never noticed we had them before! It’s embarrassing to have SEX organs! We’d better cover ourselves up and hide from God.” They were a REALLY stupid couple.

    So God says, “First, I’ll screw up the snake by knocking off his legs.” And God knocked off the snake’s legs. A companion said, “Ok, God, I guess you have to keep your word and kill that couple right now.” God replies, “Heck, no! It took a long time to make them. I think I’ll let them be miserable for, say hundreds of years.

    I’ll make the woman be miserable when she gives birth, I’ll make them sweat and be in pain when they work, and I’ll kick them out of the garden. I get to watch them get old, worn-out and die in pain. Then, I’ll make ALL of their children and children’s children miserable. That should be FUN to watch! Later on, we’ll get some guy to write that my days are 1,000 years long. No one will know the difference.”

    After a while God says, “I have to have a way to let these humans know that I really enjoy killing, so I think I’ll have those two guys Cain and Abel offer up something for me. The one that doesn’t kill anything is going to be the one that suffers.” Cain didn’t kill anything, so he suffered. Abel killed something and thought that by so doing that he wouldn’t have to suffer. He was wrong. Cain killed him. God thought the whole show was hilarious.

    God gets bored again. “I think I’ll kill the entire planet, except for a few folks,” he said. And he did. As soon as the leader of the survivors got of the Ark, he killed something to show his gratitude for God killing everyone on the planet except him and his family.
    Later on this guy named “Nimrod” went around killing all sorts of creatures and humans and he became legendary. Nothing bad happened to him, except God got bored and let him die.

    God says to one of his companions, “Even though I think Nimrod was a pretty cool guy, let somebody write that I didn’t like him. I don’t want those stupid humans to know what kind of a show we really have going on up here.”

    God gets bored just about the time a bunch of people decide to erect a high-rise building. God says, “I think I’ll kill them all.” The companions plead with him, “Don’t do that! With all this killing it’s going to take forever to get that earth populated.” God say, “Ok, but I’m still going to screw them up by giving them a whole bunch of different languages to speak. You guys take care of it, but there’s only a couple of details: 1)

    Make sure that only two people are able to speak each language, and make sure one is a male and the other is a female. 2) If a man is short, fat and ugly, make sure his companion is tall, skinny and beautiful, and vice-versa. That way at least ONE of each couple will be miserable.” And it was done, and God had a ball watching those tiny bands of wretched humans who had to start all over again in building their lives, families and cultures.

    God again gets bored and tries all sorts of things for entertainment. He tries to get this guy named Abraham to kill his son, and Abraham almost did it. God promises to “bless” Abraham’s offspring for nearly killing his son, and Abraham believed him. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Was that ever a clever ruse!

    Abraham had no idea what was in store for his offspring: hundreds and hundreds of years of forced slavery, zillions of skirmishes and wars, and of course, God personally doing tons of killing to that “blessed” offspring over the millennia to come. “I’ll bet that stupid Abraham would be shocked to know I’m gonna allow 6,000,000 of his offspring to starve to death, get gassed to death and die in all sorts of horrible ways,” God snarled.

    Got gets bored yet again and decides to make a bet with one of his companions: “See that guy Job down there? Mess him up. Give him boils and kill his wife and kids. Have all his friends turn on him.” God wins the bet, and Job gets the booby prize: a new wife who turns out to be a total nag, and new kids who are lazy and stupid.

    “See that guy named Lot down there?”, God asks. Make his three daughters seduce him into having sex with them, and then later on, have someone write how “righteous” he was. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh, by the way, kill is wife, too. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!”

    One day one of his companions report to God that some teen-aged boys are teasing one of his prophets because he’s bald. “KILL THEM,” God orders. “Get a bunch of bears to rip them to shreds.” And so it was done.

    As the centuries pass, the killings and human misery keep compounding, but God is still bored. “Make a bunch of nasty viruses,” he tells a companion. “I want to see some juicy pestilences. I want MILLIONS to die in the shortest possible time.”
    After about 4,000 years of all this fun, God finds out that the people are beginning to get wise to his games, and God comes up with a clever plan to come out smelling like a rose: “I’m going to kill my firstborn son,” he said. “That’s horrible!” he was told. “That will even make you look worse than you do now.”

    God replied, “Don’t worry, I’ve got it all figured out. You keep forgetting how stupid those humans really are. Here’s the plan: I’m going to have some words written that make it look like I was the good guy through all of this, and that it was man’s fault for the misery they’re in. I’m going to have them think I’ll “save them” from all this misery by having my Son get killed. Watch! They’ll buy every word of it!”

    God almost has remorse over what is about to do, but then his son says things like “blessed are the merciful and they will be shown mercy,” and “take my yoke. It is kindly and light.”
    “That DOES it,” God shouts. "I’m gonna kill now for sure! How DARE he say things like that?"

    So God has his son killed and makes sure the son suffers a whole bunch before he dies. The companions say to him, “Well, God you did promise those humans that once your son died that a “ransom” was fully paid and that they would be delivered from the death and miserable situation you put them into in the first place. Are you going to keep that promise now?”

    “Are you kidding?”, God replied. The fun is just beginning. We’ve got the Black Plague and a half-dozen major World Wars coming up. There are hundreds of millions of more people to kill. The best part is that those people who believed that I killed my son to deliver them from their misery are going to be the people who do most of the killing in my name in the future!

    Those humans are simply a pack of idiots. Never in my wildest dreams did I think this could be so much fun.”
    And the “fun” continues to this very day, and the joke is on us...
    Farkel

  • JT
    JT

    just a few more thoughts

    ################
    The Tale of the Five Officers (2000)

    Mark I. Vuletic

    When Ms. K. was slowly raped and murdered by a common thug over the course of 1 hour and 55 minutes, in plain sight of five fully-armed off-duty police officers who ignored her terrified cries for help and instead just looked on until the act was carried to its gruesome end,

    I found myself facing a personal crisis. You see, the officers had all been very close friends of mine, but after hearing about their inaction, I found my trust in them shaken to its core. Fortunately, I was able to talk with them later on, and had my doubts laid to rest.
    "I thought about intervening," said the first officer, "but it occurred to me that it was obviously better for the murderer to be able to exercise his free will than to have it restricted. I deeply regret the choices he made, but that's the price of having a world with free agents. Would you rather everyone in the world was a robot?

    The attacker's choices certainly weren't in my control, so I can't be held responsible for his actions."
    "Well," said the second officer, "my motivation was a little bit different. I was about to pull my gun on the murderer when I thought to myself, 'But wait, wouldn't this be a perfect opportunity for some unarmed by-stander to exercise selfless heroism, should he chance to walk by? If I were to intervene all the time like I was just about to, then no one would ever be able to exercise such a virtue. In fact, everyone would probably become very spoiled and self-centered if I were to protect everyone from rape and murder.' So I backed off.

    It's unfortunate that no one actually showed up to heroically intervene, but that's the price of having a universe where people can display virtue and maturity. Would you rather the world were nothing but love, peace, and roses?"
    "Personally, I didn't even consider stepping in," said the third officer. "I probably would have if I didn't have so much experience of life as a whole, since Ms. K's rape and murder seems pretty horrible when taken in isolation. But when you put it into context with the rest of life, it actually adds to the overall beauty of the big picture. Ms. K.'s screams were like the discordant notes that make fine musical pieces better than they would have been if all the notes were flawless.

    In fact, I could scarcely keep from waving my hands around, imagining I myself was conducting the delicious nuances of the orchestra."
    "Look, there's really no point in my trying to explain the details to you," said the fourth officer, who we had nicknamed 'Brainiac' because he had an encyclopedic knowledge of literally everything and an IQ way off the charts.

    "There's an excellent reason for why I did not intervene, but it's just way too complicated for you to understand, so I'm not going to bother trying. Just so there's no misunderstanding, though, let me point out that no one could care about Ms. K. more than I did, and that I am, in fact, a very good person."
    "I'll let you in on a secret," said the fifth officer. "Moments after
    Ms. K. flatlined, I had her resuscitated, and flown to a tropical resort where she is now experiencing extraordinary bliss, and her ordeal is just a distant memory.

    I'm sure you would agree that that's more than adequate compensation, and so the fact that I just stood there watching instead of helping her has no bearing at all on my goodness."
    By now, it had become clear to me that there was no difficulty reconciling my friends' goodness with their behavior that one day, and that anyone who disagreed must be doing so for love of evil over good.

    After all, anyone who has experienced the officers' friendship in the way I have knows that they are good. Their goodness is even manifest in my life--I was in a shambles before I met them, but now everyone remarks on what a changed person I am, so much kinder and happier, and possessed of the inner calm that everyone so desperately seeks. I am ashamed that I ever doubted their entitlement to my loyalty and my love.

    As I was getting ready to leave, the first officer spoke up again. "By the way, I also think you should know that when we stood there watching Ms. K. get raped and stabbed over and over, we were suffering along with her, and we experienced exactly the same pain she did, or perhaps even more." And everyone in the room, myself included, nodded his head in agreement.
    Note

  • tyydyy
    tyydyy

    Thank you JT,

    Those were AWESOME!!!!!!
    I have been trying to find the perfect analogy and you have provided that for me. Maybe some christians will get the message. ........NAH Probably not.

    TimB

  • JT
    JT

    tim

    when i read them both - i saw just how difficult it is to come up with a decent explanaiton short of :
    "YOU JUST GOT TO BELIEVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

  • Frenchy
    Frenchy

    There was a person once who was told about the dangers of smoking. The elders warned her that if she didn’t stop she would be df’d. Her children pleaded with her to stop. Her aged father contracted emphysema and she withheld cigarettes from him at the end although it really did not good to do so at that stage. She was fully aware of the consequences but she would angrily lash out at anyone who suggested to her that she quit. She said that it was her right and that she loved it and it brought her great pleasure and it was her business and no one had a right to tell her what to do.

    The doctors discovered a spot on her lungs one day. He asked her if she smoked. It was lung cancer and it was too late. I was with her in one of those small hospital cubicles with the doctor when he told her that she had a short time left to live, that it was going to be very painful, that she would be gasping for breath a the end, and that there was nothing that could be done about it.

    She was so distraught that I had to help her walk back to the car. I cried with her as we walked. She never smoked again but it was too late. She died a horrible death. I watched her gasping for her last breaths of air until she was so tired she simply lacked the strength to draw that last one. She suffocated and died. It was preventable. She could have lived longer. It was my mother.

    She would have loved for God to step in and intervene and give her the life that she had treated so carelessly. You see even in situations where we have full control we still do not act responsibly at times to safeguard those precious things given to us by God. Then we turn and mock him and spurn him and mockingly ask where was He when He was needed? We accuse Him of using us for His amusement when He does not respond to our cries for help, for many of us this is the first time that God hears us in the first place. Of course all His pleas for us to search for Him are all ignored. We just want Him to come running to our aid when we get in trouble.

    There are many things of which we are warned in Scripture, many things that we choose to simply ignore or rationalize away because we see opportunities there for some pleasure or convenience. If we get ill as a result of some transgression and someone points out that it’s God punishing us for what we did, we get angry and scream out: “You stupid idiot, there’s no God! I just got sick, that’s all!” It never occurs to us that, while what befell us was not direct action by God to punish us for doing what He said we should not, it was the direct result of disobeying a command set in place for our benefit in the first place. It was a warning of the consequences of the evil (lack of good) that lurked and waited to create the void left by good sense to enter in.

    Of course we would prefer that God simply remove the evil. But evil is the lack of good and not something that can be removed. It exists in those voids not occupied by good. Oftentimes we are warned of what can cause those voids but we ignore the warning and step into the evil and then we curse God for not have prevented us from entering. Of course we curse him for the warning as well. What is He to do? Perhaps if we were reduced to house pets things would go better for us. After all how many times do we see a goldfish crying or trying to commit suicide for our lack of understanding of his situation? How many times does the little fish curse us for not feeding it on time or not changing the water in his bowl or perhaps for not getting him a bigger bowl in the first place? Yes, we would all be happier as goldfish perhaps. God did not create us this way and has much more in store for us.

    We don’t have to believe for God’s will to take place. It will happen. We can find a little more peace of mind and a calmer spirit if we are able to discover that truth, that’s all.

    Another story:

    The had been repeatedly warned about her excursions into that part of town. She had been warned that walking that section of town, scantily dressed as she was accustomed to being, late at night, was very dangerous. She reminded her friends that she had a right to dress any way that she pleased and that the public sidewalks were just that, public. Once a police officer, officer J., her next door neighbor and friend’s husband, stopped her and made some remark about her presence there and she quickly reminded him that it was her right to be there and it was his job to protect her.

    One dark night the lady felt like another excursion so she pranced down the dark street and was promptly assaulted by a gang of hoodlums who also had a right to be there at night. Ironically it was a right theirs that had been defended by a public defender paid, in part, by some of the lady’s tax dollars. The lawyer had feigned great, righteous anger at the police having the audacity to presume that his law-abiding, indigent clients might have mischief in mind. He went on to remind the judge that even if they had something in mind, it was not a crime to think bad thoughts, that it was their right to do so and that unless they actually committed a crime, they should be left to pursue their freedom. It was those free spirits who were now raping and torturing and the lady who was pursuing her freedom to do as she pleased. She screamed out for help.

    Some looked out their windows but the attackers were armed and they knew what would happen if they tried to intervene. Someone called the police and soon there was the sound of sirens. The attackers had no fear of sirens and the attack continued. Soon two police officers bounded out of their cruiser and rushed the attackers. There was a scuffle and when it was over, Officer J. lay dead on the dirty pavement, his life’s blood running out into the street.

    The lady recovered from the attack in time to make the funeral for her neighbor’s husband. She smiled at the grieving woman and the two small children that sat there. She didn’t stay long, however, she wanted to get home and get dressed and take a walk down town to take her mind off things…after all, there were people out there who’s job it was to insure her the right to go where she pleased.

  • D wiltshire
    D wiltshire

    LoneW,

    I think the tree of knowledge(Good&Bad), was ment to be
    eaten by A&E.
    I don't think you can truley understand Good
    if you have not experienced Bad.
    To experience bad in a very personal way I think
    was a very loving thing God has done for us, and
    is an experience that will last us for eternity.

    I think God made some animals hunters, some even man killers,
    and even poisonous reptiles, for a good purpose.
    I don't believe that these animals became ferocious
    after mans fall in the Garden. They were that way
    many thousands and millions of years before, all the
    scientific evidence points to that conclusion.

    I think man was always a sinner the garden experience,
    just pointed it out so clearly,.. that he was.
    I think the tree in the middle of the garden,
    pictured Jesus Christ(Tree of Life). And showed,
    man his need for righteousness can only be filled,
    by God through the provision he would make,..
    in his Only Begotten Son.

    If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?

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