by flipper 43 Replies latest jw friends
Iv'e read both of Ray's books and I never got the answer to one of the questions I was most interested in having answered: Did Ray Franz hold on to the teaching that people would live in a paradise earth or did he adopt the more orthodox view that all Christians go to heaven?
Does anyone know the anwer to this?
His thoughts on that can be found here:
http://www.commentarypress.net/cpn-essays/English/E604D794-E67E-42C0-BBE9-3DB26C420F6C.html
Syl
Ray takes ALL major WT doctrines and gives them a good, old-fashioned beat down.
Yes he does. It's really a great read. Ray's characteristic understated and restrained writing style, coupled with the way he tears apart certain doctrines, make it a very interesting book.
Thank you, snowbird.
I am perfectly happy to wait to see what the eternal destiny of people will be according to God’s disposition, and I feel we are wise not to pretend to be so certain that we know all there is to know on the subject.
This makes perfect sense and is in line with the generally non-dogmatic characteristic of his two books.
Some mainstream churches teach that upon death, the person will go to Heaven for a time, but that at some point, they will get a fleshly body and live in Paradise-like conditions. The WT will never tell you that.
Right. I remember encountering Pentecostal/Evangelical types out in field service who expressed variations of this idea.
In all honesty, it made a lot more sense than what the WT was teaching. The doubts began to crystallize as we studied the Revelation book. The study book interpreted the passage describing the tree of life being in the paradise of God to mean heaven. Well if the Bible used the term "paradise" in conjunction with heaven, then why couldn't the petting-lions-in-paradise Scriptures have their fulfillment in heaven?
For the first year or so of my wholehearted involvement with this religion, I would actively engage these people believing I had the truth. After that, deep down inside I knew my positions were untenable, but cognitive dissonance took over. From about the second year forward I would simply avoid these people in field service. If it was clear they were knowledgeable of the Bible and could back up their positions, I would simply excuse myself and move on to the next door
I remember encountering Pentecostal/Evangelical types out in field service who expressed variations of this idea.
I recently heard a Baptist minister give a graveside service in which he spoke of the lady being in Heaven, but that one day her body would be ressurected and re-united with her spirit/soul.
I recently heard a Baptist minister give a graveside service in which he spoke of the lady being in Heaven, but that one day her body
would be ressurected and re-united with her spirit/soul.
I'm not a believer, but it's clear to me that there are many ways to reconcile the various scriptures on this point.
Since we're on the topic of Ray Franz's books, I'll add that one of the benefits I got out of them was realizing the sheer arrogance and audacity of Watchtower leadership to presume to have discovered the one true way to interpret all of the scriptures on all points of doctrine.
Methinks had their leaders undergone rigorous academic training, they would have realized how complex the subjects they presume to speak on behalf of God for actually are. Instead, you have a bunch of people who are generally too ignorant to realize how much other "stuff" is out there that they're missing. I mean, Fred Franz had one or two years of college under his belt. Most of these guys were working with a high school education or less (CTR). I don't think it would have been as easy for them to buy into their own bullshit had they studied theology at Harvard, for instance.
The fact that they live in an ivory tower echo-chamber doesn't help, either.
Methinks had their leaders undergone rigorous academic training, they would have realized how complex the subjects they presume to speak on behalf of God for actually are.
Cults and Fundamentalists offer CERTAINTY.
touché
I'm with you on that, NEJ.
The more I learn, the less I know.
Syl
Thanks for all the responses. Very interesting experiences ! Been busy- finally have a little weekend time to respond ! I'll answer pg.1 first.
JOOKBEARD- Yeah, it's a very good book, but a bit long and drawn out for my liking. But there are some very revealing points in there if you can get through all the " Bible " & " Christian " references.
LEAVING WT- Interesting. So every year to year and a half you would get warnings in Bethel to look out for thieves among the Bethel members ? That is too bad your friend was railroaded out of Bethel just before the 15 year period. Of course, since they changed it they wouldn't have honored it anyway. It's truly awful how the WT society sends these people out to pasture without anything.
ELDERELITE- That's awful your friend got fingered as a thief unjustly. So typical of the WT society to hold a " kangaroo court " and jump someone without real evidence. It happens in congregations at JC's all the time with elders.
JOEY JO-JO- I agree. I think it's important to bring up these various topics of what Ray Franz observed- especially for newer board members who having been trapped under " information control " inside the witnesses - would never hear of such things !
CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE- THanks for verifying what the other ex-BEthel posters are saying. I'm sure you guys saw a lot of incongruities and bizarre happenings that changed your viewpoints while at Bethel. We as witnesses were all taught to trust one another- what a shock when we found out we couldn't !
AGONUS- Yeah, they THINK it's the truth, but they're deceiving themselves.
MANN 377- Wow ! Double wow ! Your experiences you observed are really wild ! Man oh man. Sounded like " Peyton Place " at Bethel ! LOL ! Married sisters sneaking into single brothers rooms at night ! Did they ever FIND the guy with the red shirt who raped the sister at the farm ? Or did he get away ? And the funny experience of a sister opening your door in a negligee wanting to have sex ? Hell- You should have pretended to be her boyfriend ! LOL ! ( JUst joking. )
MAD SWEENEY- I was like you - I didn't feel the need for " In Search of Christian Freedom " as I too thought it would be too preachy about Christ and Christian stuff. But I was wrong. Only occasionally does Ray ( maybe in 20 % ) of the book dwell on Jesus and Christianity pushing it to some extent - but there are interesting references to Psychology books , Steve Hassan's books where Ray ponders in depth the psychological damages inflicted by the WT society on Jehovah's Witnesses as well. There are many experiences laced throughout the book of witnesses committing suicide, how their families wrote the WT society complaining and the responses that were given back to them from Bethel legal - also very interesting interactions dealing with Karl Adams - a higher up on one of the committees and how members of the GB ignored some warnings he saw about bad trends in the witnesses.
I highly recommend reading the book. It just added to, or complimented " Crisis of Conscience " in my opinion. If you are agnostic or atheist like myself - just speedread, or skip over the parts that quote too many Bible verses and talk about Christianity. There are plenty of revealing good bits of information aside from the Bible & Christian stuff. Ray could have edited it to make the book shorter as he tends to repeat himself a bit- but it's still well written and very worthy of going through. My 2 cents.
SNOWBIRD- Yeah, I highly recommend reading ISOCF.
PSACRAMENTO- So ISOCF was more eye opening than COC to you ? Interesting. In what ways ? Just curious because my eyes were opened to things in ISOCF that weren't opened in COC too. Curious about what things were opened up to you ? Please share
Now for pg. 2 responses. Thanks for all replies ! Very good takes.
ROOM 215- So you were at Bethel in 1965-1969 and there were no locks then ? And even THEN they had a thief among you guys back there ! Amazing.
SIR 82- Indeed, a lot of changes happened in 2000/2001 for sure. And most of them not good.
UNDERCOVER- It indeed was awful how they kicked out older Bethel members and sent them out to pasture ; disguising it as sending them to another field service assignment- when in reality they were being cut loose. The dishonesty of the WT society is appalling.
CALIBER- It would be good to get something in writing in the way of experiences that you could show this elder that ex-Bethel or C.O.'s wives were NOT taken care of properly. I think the lady you knew was the excepetion- not the rule.
QUIRKY- Blinded by the light- for sure.
NEVERENDING JOURNEY- I like the answers the other posters gave you on the question of " heaven " or " earth " being an eternal destiny. Since I don't know whether or not we live after death- I won't comment.
ZOIKS- I agree with you. Ray definitely has a " restrained " type of writing where he doesn't let emotion or any resentment to the WT society cloud his objective viewpoints. That's a difficult thing to do. I admire his restraint. I know I sure could never write that way ! I have too much resentment towards the WT society where it would definitely leak out in any book written
