by Confucious 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Ok...
Had a good discussion with a JDub friend. Good friend.
And I gave the argument, "Hey.., loyalty to God trumps loyalty to Organization."
Basically, that when your concious disagrees with "God's Organization" that you should stand up and say something.
Then he gave me a good point about King David and how Saul was the organization at the time but since it was God's appointed one - that David didn't work to "overthrow" Saul.
Thoughts?
Sounds like a get out of jail free card to me.
-Sab
David did run away to the protection of the Philistine king Achish twice. The second time he became his personal bodyguard and apparently didn't war against him when he became king and fought against much of the rest of Philistia.
So, David did separate himself from the "organization" at that time for protection.
We have used this reasoning with a family member and they had no comeback!
You said "loyalty to God trumps loyalty to Organization" and he referenced Saul and David.
But Saul was God's chosen representative. The Society isn't.
He'd have to prove the Society was God's Organization before he could prove it would be wrong to oppose it.
And anyway, as Queequeg said, there is a difference between leaving and trying to overthrow it. David did leave. So can you. And as it's not "God's Organization" you can actively oppose it too.
Essan: "But Saul was God's chosen representative. The Society isn't."
First of all, you are confusing "god" with your true Creator. God is an entity created by man. Even the bible scriptures show you that gods are many.
If Saul was "God's chosen representative" then this 'god' was most probably a cabal of leaders or a headship of such.
David did not recognize nor acknowledge Saul as having any spiritual authority over him. David did not capitulate to Saul's dictates.
If you remember he refused to eat the (spiritual) food served at Saul's table. Although the scriptures may use the allusion that David did not eat meat at the King's table, this is actually a thinly disguised metaphor meaning that the "meat" or "heart" of Saul's philosophies, morals, dictates were not in line with David's being true to his own conscience. This is why David refused to partake of the "table" of Saul.
David set himself apart from whatever evil and erroneous teachings that Saul promoted.
| You said "loyalty to God trumps loyalty to Organization" and he referenced Saul and David. But Saul was God's chosen representative. The Society isn't. |
At the time of these events, per the Bible, Saul was NOT God's chosen representative. David was God's annointed one. Saul lost God's support when he 'jumped ahead' of the priest and offered a sacrifice. When chastised, the only thing he was concerned about it was that he could keep his position.
Research it on the CD-rom and you will find that JWs assert that David was annointed as God's chosen one as a teenager (hence the whole David/Goliath thing) and was annointed as the leader of the tribes after Saul's death.
I love it when JWs use this one, because I point out that this is an excellent Bible example of how to treat a person or organization WHO USED TO BE GOD'S CHOSEN REPRESENTATIVE on earth, but is no longer. (They always pick up on the analogy)
Like David, one doesn't need to seek to "kill" it, but on does need to remove one self from it. :)
That's interesting Themis and Cameo-d.
Do the Society agree that Saul was no longer God's rep. at that time? While you may be right, if they disagree then this line of reasoning may not work with a JW. I know that David had been anointed but how do we know that meant Saul was not God's rep. then?
I do recall that David said with regard to Saul when he was in hiding from him: "Who can lay a hand on the LORD's anointed and be guiltless? As surely as the LORD lives," he said, "the LORD himself will strike him; either his time will come and he will die, or he will go into battle and perish. But the LORD forbid that I should lay a hand on the LORD's anointed." 1 Samuel 26:9-11.
So, I can see why a JW would reason that David still saw Saul as God's rep. Which is why it might be best, IMO, for the OP to point out to their JW friend that David left Saul and so we can leave the Org. if we to feel it has strayed from the right path. This line of reasoning doesn't involve the more difficult task of first challenging their doctrine and trying to prove either that Saul wasn't God's rep or that the Society isn't God's rep. They may both be true but may be harder for a JW to accept and I think we need to start slowly and gently with such questioning JW's.
Do the Society agree that Saul was no longer God's rep. at that time
Yes, though most don't link the two concepts. As I said, check the CD-rom.
Sorry Themis, I don't have the CD. Last one I had was the 97 disk, I think. And I don't even have that one anymore. I've been 'out' for a few years now.
Me too. :) If you want a copy, I believe someone here posted a link several days ago to the most recent version.
