The Apostles KNEW (didn't know): which is it??? Something fishy!

by Terry 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  cyberjesus

  Besides, I'm a believer. I don't know how to think, and therefore, have thoughts

  Tammy thats funny. LOL a believer just believes uh? and if you dont think how can you have thoughts?

  I know you have your heart and soul and Christ. and I respect that. but have you ever thought where we get the info of christ? How do you know he existed? from the bible. what if the bible is not telling you the truth? where does the love for christ come from then? As long as you are not willing to question what you believe you will always believe it, no matter what that is.
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  thetrueone

  Interesting information involving the known bible as its used today.

  The First Reformation

  After solidifying his position to gain complete control of the western portion of the empire in 312, the Emperor Constantine instituted the Edict of Milan, a "Magna Carta of religious liberty," which eventually changed the Empire’s religion and put Christianity on an equal footing with paganism. Almost overnight the position of the Christian Church was reversed from persecuted to legal and accepted. Constantine began to rely on the church for support, and it on him for protection. The Church and the Empire formed an alliance, which remains to this day. Very rapidly, the laws and policies of the Empire and the doctrine of the Church became one with Constantine as the interpreter of both law and policy. This was accomplished by eliminating hundreds of books thought to be against "Church" doctrine and watering down what remained by blending Christian beliefs and practice with long established Roman sanctioned pagan worship. Constantine believed that the Church and the State should be as close as possible. Constantine tolerated pagan practices, keeping pagan gods on coins and retaining his pagan high priest title "Pontifex Maximus" in order to maintain popularity with his former subjects. In 330 he began an assault on paganism but used a clever method of persuasion to force people to follow the laws by combining pagan worship with Christianity. He made December 25th, the birthday of the pagan Unconquered Sun god, the official holiday now celebrated as the birthday of Jesus. He also replaced the weekly day of worship by making rest on Saturday unlawful and forcing the new religion to honor the first, not the seventh day, as a day of rest. As a way of defining his concept of the new universal religion he simply classified everything "Jewish" to be an abomination. Considering almost every aspect of the Bible is "Jewish" by association, every doctrinal biblical principle was changed or eliminated. After 337 Constantine increased his purging of the more obvious aspects of paganism. Through a series of Universal Councils, he and his successors completely altered doctrine without regard to biblical edict, set up a church hierarchy of his own design, and established a set of beliefs and practices, which are the basis for all mainstream Bible-based churches. The separation of the Protestants and the Roman Church caused a physical split but the beliefs and practices established by Constantine remained almost identical. Very little has changed since the 4th century Councils changed the face of Christianity. An effective practice instituted was the purging of any book in the formerly accepted biblical works, over 80% of the total, that church leaders felt did not fit within their new concept of Christianity. The doctrines and practices remaining in the surviving books were effectively eradicated by simply changing them by replacing clear scripture with Church-sanctioned doctrine.

  Forbidden Not Lost

  Constantine began what was to become a centuries long effort to eliminate any book in the original Bible that was considered unacceptable to the new doctrine of the church. At that time, it is believed there were up to 600 books, which comprised the work we now know as the Bible. Through a series of decisions made by the early church leadership, all but 80 of those books, known as the King James Translation of 1611, were purged from the work, with a further reduction by the Protestant Reformation bringing the number to 66 in the "Authorized" King James Bible. What we now have in Bible-based religion, whether labeled as "Catholic", or Protesting Catholic, known as “Protestant", is unrecognizable form either the Hebrew religion, now known as the Jewish religion, or the church established at Jerusalem by the Apostles and disciples of Jesus. The practices of this first church are not practiced by any major religion and they are almost unknown, despite being clearly outlined in the existing New Testament. In its place are doctrines and practices first established in the first "true" Reformation of Christianity begun by Constantine. There is much controversy over how many books the Bible should actually contain but considering the depth and scope of those few works remaining in the "accepted" Bible, we see but a fragment of incredible wisdom and history. A study of the Lost Books of the Bible is incomplete without a clear understanding that this is not a matter of simple loss, but a campaign by the Roman Catholic Church to purge books variously classified as heretical, dangerous, and corruptive. To the public they are “lost”; to the Church they are “forbidden”. Although the exact number of books purged is known only to the Church, and not shared knowledge, some can be determined by the discovery of their presence in the church prior to the reformation resulting in what became known as the Roman "Universal" Church. One of the more obvious forms of discovery comes from the surviving books themselves, which sight works not present in the existing collection. Also many do not know that the Apocryphal books were actually included in the King James translation until they were officially purged by the Archbishop of Canterbury in 1885. Other writings also connect many books to the first church. Whatever the number before the purge by the formation of Catholicism by Constantine; even one lost book is a great loss indeed. We claim no expertise concerning the authenticity of any the lost books and leave this judgment to the reader. We do, however, strongly reject the self-proclaimed authority of any dogmatically motivated and church-controlled mortals who think themselves qualified to make such decisions. One of the most logical and realistic concepts in the Bible is the caution that one should prove all things. We believe that proving the veracity of a given thing is an individual responsibility, which must not, and should not be the duty of those who think themselves better judges.
• 

  tec

  Tammy thats funny. LOL a believer just believes uh? and if you dont think how can you have thoughts?

  LOL - I was making fun of Terry (with love, Terry) because he says that about believers. I don't say that (except to tease someone who does).

  As for the rest, CJ, I'll explain as best as I can.

  Yes, we get the info of Christ from the bible or from people who have passed that knowledge down to us. Yet, the bible does not teach us to know Christ - or everyone should come to the same conclusions. So I think that even without the bible, without people passing things down, we would come to Christ through Holy Spirit. Or at least come to the spirit of Christ (as shown in love, compassion, forgiveness, etc.)

  This is just my belief, I know, and I cannot prove that to you or anyone else - I cannot even PROVE it to myself.

  However... and to me, a great deal of it comes down to this:

  I believe everything Christ was written to have said and taught. It all 'speaks' to me, deeply - this mercy, humility, forgiveness and love for all (including enemies). Its these lessons and truths that I believe every bit as much as I believe the man who taught them. In fact, those lessons and truths help me to believe in the man - not the other way around. It started as the other way around, yes - before I studied the bible, back when I just listened to what people told me here and there about God and Jesus being his son. But now, having studied more, experienced more, THOUGHT more, those teachings and truths CONFIRM my belief in Christ, and therefore God.

  I have questioned my beliefs. Being here on this forum challenges me to think beyond my limited scope. But everything always leads me back to Christ. Always.

  Tammy
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  tec

  That was interesting, Thetrueone, thanks.

  Tammy
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  PSacramento

  We claim no expertise concerning the authenticity of any the lost books and leave this judgment to the reader. We do, however, strongly reject the self-proclaimed authority of any dogmatically motivated and church-controlled mortals who think themselves qualified to make such decisions. One of the most logical and realistic concepts in the Bible is the caution that one should prove all things. We believe that proving the veracity of a given thing is an individual responsibility, which must not, and should not be the duty of those who think themselves better judges.

  Well said.
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  Terry

  LOL - I was making fun of Terry (with love, Terry) because he says that about believers.

  Maybe Terry said it making fun of Tammy! (with love) because we always mock the ones we love.

  Maybe.
• 

  tec

  Oh, I think you mean exactly what you say, Terry, (or it would be no fun to tease you about it)... but you're sweet for making light of it.

  Maybe.

  ;)

  Tammy
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  Darth plaugeis

  Isn't it funny how the Apostles always seemed like they were in the Dark?

  They never seemed to quite really Understand what was going on. Fighting, Arguing, Mishearing, and even Pissing Jesus off at times.

  I really think that at least 6 of the Apostles said " Shit he was Serious!!!" When they Hung him on the Cross!
• 

  pirata

  thetrueone, what is the reference for your quote?
• 

  zannahdoll

  Terry, you say:

  Bibliolaters preach that the Bible is an inerrant work of unity and harmony so perfect that it can be explained only by the doctrine of verbal inspiration.

  Who are these bibliolaters specifically? That isn't what I was taught. Inspired by God, written by MAN = lots of room for discrepancies. My understanding is that the message is what is inerrant.

  But we hoped that it was he who should redeem Israel. Yea and besides all this, it is now the third day since these things came to pass ( Luke 24:21 ).

  To me this scripture is stating that they are talking and he says something like "so yeah: all this happened 3 days ago" NOT that I knew these things would happen in 3 days.

  You do mention that Jesus tells them what is going to happen repeatedly. However he told many parables and stories. And He did incredible things. But the people living with him continued to doubt (and not just that He would rise in 3 days).

  Examples:

  Peter walks on water. He literally did it. (Matthew 14:25-33) Even though he did it, he KNEW he could do it, he then started to sink.

  Another story with Peter: Jesus tells him he will deny him 3 times before the cock crows twice. You think Peter would double think denying him and be on the watch-out for what he says and listing for a crow. (Mark 14:66-72)

  Doubting Thomas, Didymus, had all the apostles, whom he knew well and trusted, TELL him that they witnessed the risen Jesus. With all the heads ups that Jesus gave him before the crucifixion and now his best buds who he had traveled with all this time following Jesus tell him what they saw and he STILL doesn't believe it, he says, until he sees Jesus for himself. (He wanted evidence, a little like some of my favorite atheists ) (John 20:24-29)

  My point with all these examples, Terry, is that you are not teaching the Bible reader anything new. Reading the Gospels you can see that yes, the apostles knew better, but then when it came down to it they really didn't know. I see it as this:

  A few times I have shown a few friends/loved ones who are older how to do things such as their own blog, help with a website, etc. And I'm talking simple stuff. Like cutting and pasting a link and forwarding it in an e-mail... This is a painful process, that on my part takes a great deal of patience. I can show them something that I deem incredibly simple maybe 20 times or more. I know they aren't stupid, I've seen them problem solve other things and achieve great things that I don't comprehend and I don't know how to even begin. However the things that I help my loved ones to do I remember learning after someone told me how maybe once or twice... or I am mostly self taught (gotta love Google) - I show them how they can look up most their basic computer questions on google too. They need a teacher. And STILL: They just don't get it!!! Just thinking about it brings the frustration back. It takes an hour or more to show them (what if I just did it myself would be done in 1 minute). Finally, FINALLY: they get it. I make them do it about three times without my help to make sure they can do it on their own. They can do it. And they can do it. Success! Then the next day, or a week later I get an e-mail or phone call "can you help me with this again? how do you do it?" WTF!!! This is when I feel I need to learn to be a good Christian so I take a deep breath and say "Yes, of course I'll help, any time!" or sometimes I just avoid them. (actually, thinking of this I feel for my mother, I know it had to be a pain in the ass to teach me how to drive stick - boy was that a nightmare).

  What I'm getting at: hearing things a bunch of times: we still forget. I have a friend who lives in this neighborhood of cul-de-sac mazes. She has lived in the same house for a few years, I visit a couple times a month every month. I STILL break out my GPS. (what can I say: I'm your typical woman driver). Maybe ONE DAY I will know where she lives without the help of a device.

  THEN: just because we KNOW something doesn't mean that we UNDERSTAND IT...

  AND FURTHER: because we UNDERSTAND something doesn't mean that we BELIEVE it.

  AND EVEN FURTHER: because we BELIEVE doesn't mean we DO NOT CONTINUE TO DOUBT

  LASTLY: even when we BELIEVE all the time it isn't always easy to PUT INTO PRACTICE or have a momentary relapse.

  SO: to answer your question: The Apostles Knew (Didn't Know): Yes. It is both.