Finally talked to my dad about it...

by gutted 9 Replies latest jw experiences

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  gutted

  Last night I finally talked to my dad about some of my views and problems with being a witness. He brought it up as he heard I am no longer going to meetings.

  His line of reasoning was interesting, though very similar to "it's God's organization, just follow it". When I brought up issues with 1914, blood, etc. he mentioned I am looking at the details too closely. He thinks it's still God's organization, the only true religion, and yes they have made mistakes, they will continue to make mistakes but it is God's channel. I tried some other lines of reasoning but obviously being in the truth all his life, he won't agree with me. He kept almost pleading for me just to go back, don't look at the details too much.

  I guess at the end of the day I am happy he knows I have problems with it doctrinally, as he was the last of my family to find out. I don't know if I want to pursue anymore conversation with him on these topics, but if I do how would you personally counteract his statement, make him think?
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  NiceDream

  It's nice you were able to talk to your Dad about it. It's interesting to see different people's reasonings for staying in. I recently talked to my Dad, and he basically felt that the organization makes mistakes...and even admitted they cover over their mistakes which looks bad!!! But, it's "the truth." No other group preaches to the extent they do, and the world is a bad place that has to be ending soon. He also mentioned he has no regrets about being a witness, but I bet he does because the religion is messing up my life and it messed up his relationship with my sister.

  My Mom told me that she feels that there is one God, but he's not going to punish people who love him, no matter if they go to the meetings or not. She's tired of religion!

  To attempt and plant a seed of doubt, I said most of their friends have left "the truth," even the guy who brought them into it and his parents...they must have a good reason. And an elder also left from our hall, why? He also must have had a reason too. I told him it was the UN issue that bothered his conscience.

  There isn't reasoning with them, only seed planting. My husband realizes that the organization makes mistakes and had some pretty crazy and even stupid ideas published, but "it's the most right" religion to him and nothing is going to change that.

  Maybe your Dad could help remind you why it's God's organization, but the WT says we're not supposed to ask that question and it could hinder further conversations with your Dad.
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  yknot

  Maybe ask him 'why' it is God's channel? (he will give a 'feeling' answer)

  Ask him 'how' he knows this to be a true statement versus a WTS assertion? (another 'feelin' answer)

  Ask him 'when' he was the last time he really 'made the truth his own' by careful examination of the WTS publication (segway into introducing availability of older literature on public domain sites like archive.org or googlebooks)

  Propose two questions:

  1) What is the 'truth' of the Org, meaning the official definition of what our 'truth'....(see WT May 1, 1981, pg 17, para 3)

  2) Did Rutherford profess holy spirit when he was making the changes in the 1930s (answer:No, Rutherford said hs was taken away and not necessary)

  3) When was Christ parousia officially made 1914 from 1874? (Answer 1943, The Truth Shall Set You Free --- if he happens to look up 'christ's presence on the CD and asserts Consolation Apr 1943...... well thanks to JWN poster Chasson, you can show him those quotes!)

  1943)-- http://www.wtarchive.org/deposit/consolation/1940/Consolation%20April%203,%201940.pdf This article doesn't affirm 'presenses' as in parousia rather affirms the teaching that Jesus was 'enthroned' in 1914, which I believe (ie I could be off a year) didn't occur until 1922.

  Here is Chasson's full collection : http://www.wtarchive.org/deposit/

  If you are wanting post a 'thanks' to Chasson please do so on this thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/128918/6/Consolation-on-Demand
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  IsaacJ22

  I agree with yknot, especially with the first 2 questions regarding why and how. Point out that you and your father have both met people out in service who wouldn't convert because they simply made up their minds that their current religion has "the truth." If they can be wrong, why can't he be wrong about the WTS? That's no basis for anything, really.

  To merely accept the Society's claims and obey it's leaders is blind faith and blind obedience. You and he could both be throwing your lives away because you're following the wrong religion and didn't take the time to find out which religion has "the truth." God may hold you accountable. Isn't that worth something?

  And how do you investigate the "trueness" of a religion? I can't think of any way, except to look at the details! And maybe at the organziation's behavior, which your father already admits is less than stellar when they try to coverup their gaffs instead of admitting to them.

  BTW, I'm an atheist, so I'm merely talking strategy here. But you must focus on your father's feelings here, not his intellect. He obviously isn't following his reasoning very much if he's telling you to basically just go with it. I doubt an argument over the Society's reasoning about various issues will matter very much to him. If you sense he's wavering, that might be the time to start hitting him with other things. But until then, wouldn't bother. If nothing else, maybe you can get him to accept your reasons for leaving. I wouldn't get my hopes up about converting him to your way of thinking, though.

  Best of luck either way.
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  OnTheWayOut

  It might help you to help Dad if you read CAPTIVES OF A CONCEPT. Or you can dig through freeminds.org and jwfacts.com and others to get this, but the book will help you argue that it would only be God's organization if it was picked as the JW's say it was. If it was picked as God's organization because it was "the truth" then why is everything they taught back in 1918 no longer what they teach?

  I know for the sentence above, they will just say "the light got brighter" but then use that book to show how even that isn't true.
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  Meeting Junkie No More

  Sorry, I haven't read all the posts; but whenever someone tells me yeah, they've made mistakes; I counter with well, so has the Pope!. Let's give him a break as well, then. He's trying; we all make mistakes. Most JWs don't know what to say because I really look them in the eye when I say this, and I think (hopefully) some little lightbulb is going off in their head. I mean if we (J dubs) can use it as an excuse, surely others can too?!
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  gutted

  Great suggestions guys, I'll have to try the why, how, when questions.

  I think I need to read Captives of a Concept as well.
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  Crisis of Conscience

  This is a great thread! Oh and what's with people talking to their fathers lately? LOL

  I have had the same conversation with my father recently. And let me say, that gollygeegoshdarned belief in the FDS is a tough nut to crack!!

  My father finally admitted to me that he hasn't attended a meeting in quite a while (which I already suspected). I thought this could be a good time to plant some seeds. So I let him know that I was very discouraged, though still attending meetings. I asked him his reason and he gave it to be the way some of the brothers in his hall act/acted as the cause.

  So from there it turned into a conversation lasting a few hours. I brought up doubts I had and things that I felt didn't make sense. He surprisingly agreed and admitted he thought about a lot of those things for a long time, even when he first started studying and got baptized. He said he especially hated the man-made titles and positions.

  But alas, in the end he still feels there is a FDS. Despite acknowledging the flip flops in teaching!! Now he attended the convention,said he really enjoyed it, and says he wants to start going back to the meetings but finds it difficult. AAARRGH!!

  I understand the frustration you all have with family, as I am in the same boat. I wish you all the best in the struggle.

  CoC
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  wantstoleave

  It is nice you were able to openly talk with your dad. He sounds like a reasonable man, so keep that line of communication open When I expressed my doubts to my dad last year, he too said similar, in not looking too closely at the details. I also asked him why THIS was God's only channel and he did his best to steer me into seeing it was. He said any organisation, whether sporting or religious, always has a higher leader, people we follow. He says he has lived in the world and there is nothing out there, that THIS is the true religion. To his credit, he didn't try to ram it down my throat. He didn't get upset with me. He tried fervently to 'help' me the only way he knew how. Unlike my mother and sister who cried uncontrollably and yelled at me

  The further I get away from it, the more I believe that God doesn't need us to follow ONE way only, that good people can come from anywhere - religion or not. My brother made a good point. He told me 'religion is fear'. I wholeheartedly believe that.
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  Ding

  No doubt you will receive a number of different suggestions. In the end, you're the one who knows your dad, so you'll have to make the call.

  My idea this that your dad may be believing the WTS basically because he's sure all other religious organizations are worse or false.

  You might want to talk with him about following the pure Christianity in the Bible rather than ANY religious organization. Admittedly, this is a radical thought to a JW, who is used to seeing EVERYTHING organizationally.

  If you can get him to read some of the epistles such as Romans, Galatians, and Ephesians without any WT literature to tell him what to think, he might see for himself that the WTS isn't Christianity.

  I say "might." Obviously, there are no guarantees.