God's Name Discussion

by garyneal 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • garyneal

    Several weeks ago, I was attending a meeting with my wife and I brought my King James translation of the Bible with me. One of the brothers came up to me after the meeting and asked me what translation did I have and I showed it to him. He asked if I knew that God's name appeared in that translation and I said, "Yes, Psalms 83:18 I do believe." He asked if he could open it and in it he showed me scripture where it says that they are to be "witnesses of Me" and said that is why they are known as the Jehovah's Witnesses. He went on to show that God's name was taken out of most bibles and was replaced with LORD. I asked him did he know that the 'more correct' transliteration of God's name was Yahweh and that most modern bibles replace the divine name with LORD because it was a general custom not to speak the divine name? As I expected, he understood that but insisted that Jehovah was the proper English translation, etc., etc., etc..

    I later told my wife that the divine name never appeared in the old Greek manuscripts of the New Testament and yet Jehovah's Witnesses saw fit to insert it 237 times in their translation of the New Testament. My wife is pretty ignorant about stuff like this and dogmatically insisted that they would not have done so without good reason. Before she left for the meeting, I told her that before she dogmatically proclaims something to be true she should at least do their research because even the Watchtower noted that the divine name did not appear in the old Greek manuscripts. She must have asked the brothers at the hall about this because when she came back she went on about the Septuagint and showed me in the King James Bible where it showed LORD in all caps in certain passages of Matthew when Jesus was being tempted by Satan and in other places. She was kind of implying that the King James was a more accurate translation because of this so I asked her that if she considered the King James to be more accurate then did she agree with the rendering of 1 John 5:7-8 in the King James? These verses explicitly speak of the Trinity in that translation. Cornered, she insisted that I was just trying to not see what is clearly the truth about God's name.

    I feel bad for my wife for having to defend something she knows little about and she obviously wishes to remain blissfully ignorant about such deep things so I agreed to just speak with the brother about this. I called him weeks ago and we arranged a time to meet, but at the last minute I cancelled thinking that this is a complete waste of time. He approached me yesterday at the meeting and asked if we were ever going to get together to discuss this. I said I would and we agreed to meet today at 5:30 p.m. at the Kingdom Hall. Frankly, I just want to get it over with because I feel like I am about to confront another closed mind. However, since I agreed to meet, I want to be somewhat prepared. Knowing what I am up against, I have no intentions of trying to prove anything, but I will ask if he would consider some reading material that supports my assertions that God's name did not appear in the Christian Greek NT. I'm probably going to leave a copy of a printout of this web page (http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/jehovah.php) in hopes that he will read it with an open mind. If he balks at the fact that it may be considered 'apostate' material the whole discussion ends. The way I see it, if he is not open to look at opposing views, why should I bother reading whatever WT literature he wants to present?

    Any other suggestions on what I can bring up at this discussion?

  • PSacramento

    Well, you can bring up ACTS 1 where Jesus says they are to be HIS witnesses and where Jesus says that it is NOt up to man to know things that are of God's provdence and that the angles, after Jesus acends, tel those there that He will return in the SAME Manner.

    1 In the first book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus did and taught from the beginning 2 until the day when he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles whom he had chosen. 3 After his suffering he presented himself alive to them by many convincing proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. 4 While staying a with them, he ordered them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait there for the promise of the Father. “This,” he said, “is what you have heard from me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with b the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

    6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, is this the time when you will restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He replied, “It is not for you to know the times or periods that the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” 9 When he had said this, as they were watching, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 While he was going and they were gazing up toward heaven, suddenly two men in white robes stood by them. 11 They said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking up toward heaven? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

  • Heaven

    As a teen, I was quite struck with how much the WTS had to mess with what was written in the Bible. Their interpretation of scripture was something I never agreed with. It's like they have to put their own stamp on what was written so long ago to legitimize themselves.

    Even to this day, the way they pray annoys me because they insert Jehovah (among other things). Christ never used his Father's name in prayer. So why does the WTS? My conclusion is to attempt to legitimize their claims that they are unique and special and God's Chosen.

    It never did that for me. It actually did the opposite because of Revelation 22:18-19.

  • sir82
    I will ask if he would consider some reading material that supports my assertions that God's name did not appear in the Christian Greek NT.

    Ask him if he will believe what the Society itself published on the matter.

    In their book "All Scripture is Inspired of God and Beneficial" (published in 1963, updated in 1990, and still "current") they admit that the tetragrammaton does not appear in any manuscript of the New Testament.

    Just take hold of that and don't let go. Ask him what the difference is between "translation" and "interpretation". Ask him on what basis the Society concludes that those 237 instances really should contain the name "Jehovah". In reply he'll probably just read what the "SI" book says - but ask why he considers that to be "translation" and not "interpretation". Watch for weaseling, wavering, equivocating, and justifying - don't allow it.

    Finally, after reading one of the places in the book of Revelation where they have inserted the name "Jehovah" (I don't recall exactly, but I'm pretty sure it's somewhere in the 1st chapter, and probably in a few other places), ask him to read Revelation 22:18,19, and ask him to explain to you what it means:

    18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.


    The WBT$ reWrote the bible for thier own convenience..

    "Grace" was replaced with"Undeserved Kindness"..A WBT$ Buzz Word..

    You will find all kinds of WBT$isms in their Bible..

    Jehovah`s Witness`s don`t care..


  • PSacramento

    Trying to argue about the Name of God with a JW is almost immpossible because they only accept the NWT and if it is there, then it is right, if it isn't, then it was changed by apostats and only the NWT is right because only it shows the true name of God.

    Of course the funny part is that, in the NT, there is only ONE place that God's name ( one of them) is present and that is in Revelation in the word, "Hallelujah".

  • JWoods
    In their book "All Scripture is Inspired of God and Beneficial" (published in 1963, updated in 1990, and still "current") they admit that the tetragrammaton does not appear in any manuscript of the New Testament.

    This was my first major doctrinal breaking-issue with the Watchtower when I discovered it in 1970. I was convinced that tetragrammaton HAD to be in the early manuscripts, the Roman Catholics had suppressed it, and the WTBTS had restored it. I was assistant congregation servant in a little congregation in western Oklahoma and this came up in a discussion in service - I had always just taken this as gospel truth "because the WT said so." (I thought)

    Was I ever ashamed when I found out the truth - they had just stuck it in the NT because they were fixated on this Jehovah name.

    I was also pretty ashamed when I had to go back to the college prophesor of comparative religions (who told me to go research the issue) and admit it.

    He was nice about it and congratulated me for doing a good job at looking it up.

  • undercover
    if he is not open to look at opposing views, why should I bother reading whatever WT literature he wants to present?

    Mark that comment... 'cause that's where you're going to end up. Even if you can use the WT literature to prove your point (as Sir82 demonstrated) he'll find some way to weasel out of fully accepting the info and he'll especially refuse to look at opposing viewpoints from outsiders.

    But that's okay too because when he sees that you're obstinately holding on to your evidence, he'll conclude that Jehovah's (or whatever his name is) spirit isn't operating on his attempts to save you and he'll give up.

  • Chalam

    garyneal Any other suggestions on what I can bring up at this discussion?

    I'd focus in on the name by which men are saved.

    Romans 10:9-13 (New International Version)

    9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11 As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." [ a ] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." [ b ]

    1. Romans 10:11 Isaiah 28:16
    2. Romans 10:13 Joel 2:32

    Does Paul bring up Isaiah 28:16 in reference to Jesus or "Jehovah"?

    What is the "Lord is Lord of all" Paul is referring to?

    If verse 12 should read "Jehovah", not "Lord", why does not verse nine state a confession of "Jehovah is Lord"?

    Some addition verses to bear in mind for the discussion

    Acts 2:21-22 (New International Version)

    21 And everyone who calls
    on the name of the Lord will be saved.' [ a ]

    22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

    1. Acts 2:21 Joel 2:28-32

    Acts 2:37-39 (New International Version)

    37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

    38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

    Acts 4:10-12 (New International Version)

    10 then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. 11 He is
    " 'the stone you builders rejected,
    which has become the capstone. [ a ] ' [ b ] 12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

    1. Acts 4:11 Or cornerstone
    2. Acts 4:11 Psalm 118:22

    Also Zechariah 14:9, 1 Corinthians 8:5-7 , Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 12:3 etc.



  • peacedog

    The simple problem with the word "jehovah" is that it's not and never was God's name. To help the jw understand the issue, perform a little exercise with them. Tell the jw to remove all the vowels from their own name, and replace them with vowels from another word. Now ask them, is this new word your name?

    Ask the jw how using a made-up word that is not God's name is better than using the word LORD? (Remind them that God *IS* Lord; but he is *NOT* "jehovah" - a made up word...)

    I would also, as PSac suggested, ask the jw who the New Testament Christians were "witnesses of". "Jehovah"? Or Jesus?

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