What's To Become of Adam and Eve?

by Cold Steel 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • designs

    You might want to study the Jewish Faith and the various beliefs about the return to Gan Eden.

  • debator

    Hi Cold steel

    Speculation on Adam and Eve beyond what the Bible says is pointless and just leads to false ideas. the bible says no more than they died for their sins. Does Jesus by paying with his life for Adams original sin mean adam himself gets a chance at resurrection? the Bible says nothing on this.

    1 Corinthians 15:22
    For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

    You then talk about "the least scripture" in relation to Jesus. Your assumption that he is refering to himself just doesn't fit the wording or context.

    Earlier in mathew he talks about "the least in kingdom of heaven" is he refering to himself here?

    Matthew 5:19
    Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    No clearly he is talking of his chosen who follow the bible commands

    We then come to the scripture you use.

    Matthew 11:11-12 (New International Version)

    11 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.

    Verse 12 again shows he is talking about his chosen because they are the forceful men laying hold of it. Here we have a contradiction can jesus be "least" and "king""Lord" I cannot see any biblical context for assuming Jesus is refering to himself here it seems to be drawn purely from your need to make everyone be in heaven and apparently all worth more than Jesus who is least!

    Why where Adam and Eve made physical beings on earth and God call this all good since you see it as a thing of disgust that the earth could be a bible promise by God? Why not just let them be in heaven straight away?

    From your proof-texting and lack of context, reading doctrine into the scriptures without proof beyond opinion. I suggest it is you that has the faulty exegesis Cold steel.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Hi, Debator. I'm as anxious to leave the fate of Adam and Eve up to the Almighty as anyone else is. But I'm not the one who said they were doomed to eternal death. I've heard a number of witnesses make that remark.

    You ask: "Why w[h]ere Adam and Eve made physical beings on earth [sic] call this all good since you see it as a thing of disgust that the earth could be a bible promise by God?" The Earth will be changed, and it's where all those who become as Christ will dwell. They will not dwell as Adam and Eve did before they died, but will live as beings of light and glory. Jesus was resurrected as a physical, perfect and glorified being of light, and those who dwell upon the Earth will dwell with Christ. The Earth will no longer be a place of grass and trees as it is now, but will itself be glorified. Adam and Eve no longer will be mere clay, but beings of eternal light, as was Jesus. As man died, so will the Earth. As he is resurrected, so will the Earth, in eternal glory. There is nothing to be gained by living on a terrestrial earth for eternity. (Would that really appeal to you?) I mean, the colorful costumes and painting and playing musical instruments would tire after a very short time. Nothing you could do would occupy your mind for long under the limitations Adam and Eve were subjected to.

    Another thing. What gives God the right to create people and subject them to the horrors of Earth life? Don't you see any injustice in creating people and dumping them into war, concentration camps, inner cities, African villiages rife with disease and flies? Adam may have sinned, but those who are created now did nothing to deserve it. And if these poor souls fail to find the straight and narrow path to Jehovah, they are doomed to instant destruction. Such a God could not be called a God of Justice and Mercy. If I understand you guys correctly, you don't even know for certain that you're God's one true church -- you're only guessing. God's said nothing to any of your governing board members, right? Wouldn't Jehovah at least feel an obligation to point the way and not keep everyone guessing? I think God would at least have to get our approval before sending us here, and that would require not only a spiritual existence, but a premortal one as well. Shoot, I'd rather be an angel where life's cushier and I can fly. Do you really think that men are going to be inferior to the angels once they're resurrected? I don't. I think they're going to be superior beings in all respects.

    As far as John the Baptist is concerned, I leave it to others to decide. There are a number of interpretations that make better sense than the JW interpretation. First, as stated, Jesus, having taken upon himself the sins of the world, technically had the least claim on the Kingdom of Heaven. Thus, Jesus was saying that as great as John was, that He (Jesus) was greater. Another interpretation is that John was great, but he died under the law, having not the benefit of the Gospel knowledge and ordinances. That didn't mean that he wouldn't be given those advantages at a later time, but Jesus may have been saying that those who died under the Gospel had an advantage in knowledge over John. When Jesus died, his spirit went and preached to the spirits who were in prison, those who died before the Gospel. John may have been one of them.

    Going back to the first interpretation, one theologian said: "Who did Jesus have reference to as being the least? Jesus was looked upon as having the least claim in all God's kingdom, and was least entitled to their credulity as a Prophet, as though He had said: 'He that is considered the least among you, is greater than John -- that is myself."'

    This is the interpretation I believe is correct. Jesus would be contradictory had He said that John was the greatest of all prophets, but he who was least in heaven is greater. There are no sprictures teaching that there are two classes of saved beings -- a heavenly class and an earthly class. You can believe as you choose, but I think the Witnesses are wrong on this because it wouldn't make any sense. Calvin, who I have little regard for, said he believed John was merely "a voice" and as a simple preparer for the Messiah, he was not greater than those who he felt were greater.

  • Chalam

    Cold Steel No offense to any believing members, but this sounds like some screwy theology.

    This about sums up the WT, the whole of their theology is totally screwed from the foundations up 1 Corinthians 3:11 , Ephesians 2:19-21

    The bible is not clear about the destiny of Adam and Eve.

    Other patriarchs such as Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and such are clearly in heaven right now Hebrews 11, Matthew 17, 2 Corinthians 5:8

    John 10:16 (New International Version)

    16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

    Ephesians 2:14-16 (New International Version)

    14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

    Ephesians 4:3-5 (New International Version)

    3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism

    What is clear that there is one flock, not two, one hope, not two, one Lord, not two, one faith, not two.

    So, why concern yourself with Adam and Eve? They have lived their lives and faced judgment.

    Hebrews 9:27 (New International Version)

    27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment



  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Adam and Eve are our eternal parents and should be honored for their role in bringing Eternal Life to their posterity. Through them and the Redeemer of Man, we can be exalted far beyond what they were in the Garden of Eden. One reason they were barred from tasting the fruit of the tree of life was because they would have become immortal in their fallen state. I believe God knew Adam and Eve would transgress and I think He was counting on it. Through Jesus/Jehovah, Man can return to God in an exalted and glorified state. Not just the "anointed class," but every human. Who would want to spend an eternity in a garden setting? Not moi. The pictures that Witnesses use to show people strolling through the hills and trees playing musical instruments would be fine for a week or two...but then what?

    Yeeesh! Man was to be God's crowning achievement, but even the angels would have it better than the earthly class. Man, by his very nature, is intelligent. He's more than just a pet in a garden setting. He has to achieve, create, build, learn. To think that God had it in His mind for Adam and Eve to stay in the Garden is, to me, inconceivable.

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