1Samuel 28

by PSacramento 27 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • cameo-d

    So what could look like a spirit coming up from the ground? Maybe some dry ice and a fan blowing? Whatever it was, it was ILLUSION.

    The story is about hipocracy for one thing. And the reason mediums were not allowed by God even if it was just for entertainment purposes only....is because diviners, whether using ventriliquism, necromancy, reading entrails, etc. were all in competition with the religious institutions. The fees would take $$$ out of the church coffers. All of the "thou shalt not visit fortune tellers" was a ploy to eliminate the competition.

    And yes. Mediums, psychics, etc. were competition to the church. The high priest only had his magic light up buttons and just having one trick gets old. So people were likely to stray for "second opinions".

    There were no ghosts. There were no dead people coming back from the spirit world. It is all fantasy make believe. Another point of the story is that leaders are above the law. Just look at modern day examples! Get it, now?

  • PSacramento

    Cameo-d, its fine to get THAT point from the story too, but that doesn't change what was written and it wasn't written as a parable, it was written as a "factual happening".

    There is nothing in the story that hints at it being an illusion or that Saul was NOT convinced and that the spirit did NOT speak with authority and knowledge.

  • Pistoff

    There is no way to know how extensively the kings consulted mediums; it is fairly well established that monotheism was not the rule even at the time of David, around the year 1000.

    So we can only trust the redacting of the 8th to 5th century to tell us the truth; based on other biases in the OT that is unlikely.

    Saul, bad; David, mostly good but having god's good spirit no matter what.


  • peacedog

    The important part for a JW ought to be that the BIBLE SAYS IT WAS SAMUEL. Since they claim to believe the bible and all....

  • AGuest

    "A house divided against itself cannot stand" (may you all have peace!).

    I just wanted to clarify something about "mediums" if I may - thank you, all! A medium is one who can communicate with those in both the physical and the spirit worlds... including the dead... and they are not myths. If they were, there would have been no need for a prohibition against them and what they do. They can do pretty much what I am permitted to do: hear/see spirits; however, they do more by acting as a kind of go between (i.e., they communicate both ways; I do not, because it is not permitted by the One who granted me the gift and thus is my "authority" as to how I am to use it). The main difference is that they do so by some "authority" other than God through Christ; thus, they CAN communicate both ways (from the spirit realm to the physical realm, and vice versa), but really are "breaking in." I am only permitted to communicate from the spirit realm (excluding the World of the Dead) to the physical realm. And I am only permitted to communicate what I hear from my Lord... or one appointed by him. I cannot communicate from this realm to that one, however; rather, I am to direct the one who wishes to make such communication to do so for himself/herself because that direction (here to there) is "blocked" for me: when someone asks me to "ask" something for them/or their behalf, I cannot. It just won't, well, "go through" is the term that comes to mind. It won't happen and I know this without even trying it. I digress...

    Please note that some do do what they do by means of the same authority as I, initially; however, once they realized they could realize monetary gain (and there is the potential for a LOT of money!!), they began to abuse the "gift." Rather than "give free" what they "receive free," they see opportunity and so lift themselves up, seat themselves in Moses "seat"... and use the gift either to make money or enslave. The latter (enslave) is even more desirable than the first (money)... because power is almost always more valuable than riches. Which is why some seek high religious position versus commercial or monarchical wealth. With religious position, you often get both: power AND wealth. Again, I digress...

    I understand that some believe, based on the supposed logic of the physical world, that the phenomenon is false, that such persons are charlatans, all of them. Including me, perhaps. And I would be lying if I didn't say that for some time, early one, I didn't want the gift (I have such times still... but push past them. I am still flesh with its blood, and so still subject to fear and doubt (certainly early on myself)... and lack of patience. Earthling man can be quite... well, let's just say that I understand why David asked that God judge him, rather than man, and what Jeremiah meant when he said he wouldn't speak of things to Israel any more. I can identify with them both.

    But that really is not true (and after my stint in the WTBTS the ONE thing I vowed is that truth would reign in my life, regardless of what others thought, said, or did... and so I would ALWAYS tell/deal in/ask for the truth). The TRUTH... is that those who can hear (if not see) spirit beings do exist.

    That is NOT to say that some "mediums" are not false. Many (if not most) are indeed false. They have absolutely NO ability... or authority... whatsoever, whether from God or some other source, and merely make up stuff (which, very truthfully, given the gullibility of earthling man as a species, isn't really all that hard to do). Some of these do realize that they will answer for their deceit one day (but live for "today" and so do not concern themselves with "tomorrow"); some are atheists (as, truthfully, are most religious leaders) and so do not believe there will really be any real consequences - it is merely just another way to make money off the masses... who, majorily, really wish to BE misled (advertising, PR, some business, and the leaders of most religions KNOW this!!).

    As for "Samuel" and the woman, they really were both real and it was Samuel's spirit that was awakened. The woman was chagrined with Saul, however, for having her call up Samuel because she knew the prohibition against it. Calling up someone else wouldn't have been a problem because, in her mind, how really would the Most Holy One of Israel know of it? But when she realized it was Samuel who was called up, she knew the jig was up for her. Because THAT particular "spirit" belonged to the Most Holy One of Israel... and there is no way He wouldn't have known.

    Again, I bid you all peace.

    A slave of Christ,


  • falasha

    Hello, does anyone know if Leolaia has published anything? If so, I would love to read it. Such amazing scholarship!

  • Terry

    Yet again the Bible account is useless.

    It is the INTERPRETATION which is everything.

    On this, each person pursues the interpreter du jour according to what they personally desire to read into the text.

    I take the story on its merits.

    It is obviously a story that was told (by somebody) and believed enough to make it into the "sacred" text.

    Ancient people believed all sorts of things.

    Has anybody here ever read the writings of David Icke?

    There are people who believe what he writes about is absolutely true. In our own modern times!

    + Added to

  • thenoblelodge

    I'm afraid David Icke became the object of a lot of ridicule when he started spouting all that stuff. He was a sports commentator who started wearing turquoise shellsuits, saying they were a protection against..... bummer can't remember now....but it was something weird.

    Anyways he got scoffed at a lot and no one took him seriously, still don't.

Share this