How Long Has The Christ Been Invisibly Present?

by wannabe 19 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • wantingtruth

    Hello wannabe ,

    it seems we agree in many things !

    My lack of english prevents me to express many things I would to.

    Blessings !

  • dgp

    Some people even question whether he was ever visibly present, or whether he is a composite of many others.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Jesus says He will return, but on the other hand He tells us He will be with us always. Also, that when two or more are gathered in His name, there will He be also.

    His return should not be confused with His Presence, which is manifested through the Holy Spirit. This doesn't mean that He can't return and appear to people as He chooses. (He tells us that He will appear to some and make His abode with them.) But He will not return to rule the Earth until Gog (the Beast) makes his assault on Jerusalem (see Zachariah 12, 14). In Zechariah 12, we learn:

    • Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place;
    • Jerusalem shall be a burdensome stone for all people;
    • The Lord will seek to destroy all nations that come against Jerusalem;
    • Jehovah says, "They shall look upon ME whom they have pierced;
    • There shall be mourning in the valley of Megiddo (Armegeddon)

    In Revelation 11, we learn:

    • While under seige, the Lord will call two witnesses;
    • They will have power to call down fire and to seal up the heavens and smite the Earth with plagues;
    • Their mission will last three-and-a-half years;
    • After that, the Beast will slay them;
    • Their bodies will lie unburied in the streets of Jerusalem for three-and-a-half days;
    • Then the spirit of life from God enters into them, and they stand upon their feet;
    • They ascend up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies behold them;
    • An earthquake happens

    In Zachariah 14, we learn:

    • The Lord will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle;
    • The city shall be taken, and the houses rifled;
    • Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations;
    • The mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west;
    • And Jehovah's feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives;
    • The LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD;
    • Every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles;
    • Those who don't come up will be visited with draught and plague.

    When pieced together, and viewed in the context of Ezekiel 38, this is a blow by blow detailed description of the Second Coming of Christ. It also shows clearly that He is Jehovah, who will rule during the Millennium as King and Lord. All nations will gather against Jerusalem, which will be gathered back into the place of its inheritance. All the nations under Gog's rule will come down on Jerusalem, the Lord will call two prophets and the battle will rage three and a half years. After that, the prophets will be killed, and then resurrected. As they go up to heaven, Jehovah comes down and the Mount of Olives splits in twain in an earthquake. The Jews run into the midst thereof and one asks Him, "What are these wounds in thy hands?" And the Lord answers, "Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends." (Zachariah 13:6)

    Only when Christ returns will Jesus be on Earth to rule. And those Muslim nations that refuse to go up and worship Him will be sanctioned by draughts and plagues. The idea of an "invisible" return is, of course, ridiculous. It's like transubstantiation. Invisible miracle...wanna see it again? It's a good way to get one over on the masses. I don't know who at Bethel came up with it, but I can see him coming home that night and telling his wife.

    "Do you think they'll buy it?"

    "I don't know. We'll run it up the flagpole and see who doesn't salute!" [Famous JW line!]

  • EndofMysteries

    Cold Steel - Very much along the lines of what I've seen, or from a literal standpoint. If you got that from your own reading, happy to see some really studying and trying to learn the truth.

  • EndofMysteries

    O and Cold Steel - Have you explored if the two witnesses may not even be human? Or if their prophesying is over a much longer span of time?

  • I quit!
    I quit!

    Supposedly since 1914. All I know is let you or me or any JW try not showing up for work and telling our boss were invisibily present and see how that goes over.

  • The Finger
    The Finger

    I think you're right Christ has been invisible present since his ascension. I think his 2nd coming hasn't occurred. It will be like lightning, he said, something that is very visible. In the preceding verse it seems to be talking about those who say he has returned but is not visible. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

  • jam

    John 16;33 He conquered the world and Matt. 28;18 Christ have all authority in Heaven and earth.

    Since he has conquered the world in 1914 or 2000 yrs. ago why has he continue to let Satan deceive?

    For what purpose. My understanding of Satan was , he Is the ruler of this world but the bible stated

    he is the great deceiver of the world a big difference. And who was Christ speaking too at Matt;28;20

    (I will be with you to the end of ages), the Jews..Matt. 15;24 Jesus said He was sent ONLY to lost sheep

    of the house of Israel (jews). Why Jesus didn,t say he will be with all of mankind until the end of days , he must had known

    that his people would reject him one day..

  • foolsparadise

    There is no way to tell how long because its hard to see and believe in something that is invisible.

  • Cold Steel
    Cold Steel

    Have you explored if the two witnesses may not even be human? Or if their prophesying is over a much longer span of time?

    No, I take a pretty literal reading of this one. In apocalypic literature, you can get into some crazy stuff, and it's not all literal and it's many times presentational. In this case, the two prophets are the two candlesticks mentioned by Zechariah. The two prophets also have powers that traditionally were given to Elijah and Moses. I don't think these are the two prophets, though there is a tradition that Moses was assumed into heaven as was Elijah.

    Why take it literally, though? Note the language (Rev. 11):

    And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth. And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    The city has to be Jerusalem and cannot "spiritually" represent anything else since it "spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt." Specific reference is made to their dead bodies, the fact that they wouldn't be put into graves, that the "spirit of life" entered into them and that they "stood upon their feet." Also, their enemies would see them and that they would ascend into heaven in a cloud. The earthquake here is undoubtedly the same one mentioned in Zechariah -- the one which splits the Mount of Olives in twain. When Jehovah comes, all the saints would come with him, and the Jews would see the wounds in his hands and say, "What are these wounds in thy hands?"

    In short, mixing literal elements and metaphor just isn't done, even in apocalyptic literature. In any given section, it's either all one or all the other. Mixing them would confuse everyone. There are places where metaphor is used, but I see it used with other obvious metaphors like the woman and the wilderness, the beasts and such. In this case, the Beast mentioned already has been identified as presentational. He's a real person. Jerusalem is a real city, and the time periods are actual days and years. For these witnesses to be metaphors, it would require massive mixing of real and presentational. Just my view.

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