Avoiding arguments/hurt feelings on JW.com

by teejay 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • teejay
    teejay

    Ginny,

    Reread my original post. I said:

    Some say that, "well... it's up to Hillary to rationally consider the words, in his mind render them powerless, and continue to post."
    I didn't say
    "Mary says..." or "Billy Bob says..." I said "some say..." becaue SOME people *do* say that and believe it. I didn't say anyone in particular held this view, including you. If you thought I was stepping on your toes and feel a need to defend an imagined slight or support a given position, that's your prerogative. I stand by my statement.
  • AlanF
    AlanF

    : If you can do better than the WTS, then do something about it.

    I am, Fridolin sweetie. Rest assured, I am. I am applying the principle, "That which is crooked cannot be made straight."

    AlanF

  • Xena
    Xena

    Great post teejay!

    I especially enjoyed this quote and will be doing my best to impliment it also!

    a poster is only as good as their last post." I like Larc's approach: take each post at face value regardless of who authored it.
    Thank you!
  • AlanF
    AlanF

    No, teejay, I'm not discounting "faith". On the contrary, I'm very much taking it into account. When I use a term like "braindead", I'm not necessarily referring to a poorly functioning mind, but to one that deliberately refuses to think. This is the Orwellian style mind, the one that, despite knowing what is right, refuses to acknowledge it (and perhaps even forgets the refusal) because its possessor does not want to take the consequences of acting on the truth. This is the mind that has "faith" despite the facts. I consider such minds dead.

    You Know is a good example of what I mean. He has impressive intellectual powers, but because he has faith that he's been especially "anointed" and is going to heaven, he can dismiss all manner of truth. While not physically braindead, he's intellectually and spiritually braindead, because he deliberately chooses the pretty lie over the truth. Such people are dangerous because they're clever enough that they draw others after them. For people inclined to be drawn after such clever charlatans, often the only way to get them to think is by throwing an unpleasant "label" in front of them.

    J. R. Brown and other WTS leaders are other fine examples of what I call "braindead" people. They know a good deal of truth about "The Truth", but because they buy into the pretty WTS lie, they do not hesitate to throw their claimed spiritual values in the garbage in order to do the bidding of the holy organization. It's not that these guys are unable to think, or that they are "not thinking", but that they are using their thinking ability to deceive others, and often themselves. When guys like Brown bend and break the truth in order to protect the JW organization, are they not prostituting their minds willingly?

    I understand what you're saying about labeling individuals or groups as "evil", and I certainly would not label most individuals or groups as evil. However, to me the notion of "evil" generally involves intent. If someone who knows better intends to cause harm to others, either by deliberate commission or omission, then I will unhesitatingly label him "evil". Of course, we can often not determine whether someone "knows better", so I'm talking about principle. In principle, someone who knows better is not sick. Conversely, someone who is mentally deficient enough not to know better, I would label "sick". Most criminals are not sick, but evil, because they know better. They simply do not care if they hurt someone. Of course, one can claim that such uncaring people are "sick", but that's a useless concept to me because it means that all criminals are sick and so cannot be held responsible for their behavior. I categorically reject this notion.

    Pedophiles fall into the categories I've described above. Some are mentally deficient and have little idea what they're doing. They should be put away to protect children, but not treated like criminals. Others know exactly what they're doing, but because they enjoy the physical feeling, or the power, or whatever they get their jollies from, more than they dislike the hurt they cause to the child, they choose to cause harm. Since they know that they're causing harm, and they do it anyway, they're evil in my book. Again, one can label such people "sick", but I think it's useless.

    Now consider a JW official who is given a problem: he's presented with the choice between allowing a gross wrong to be done to an individual JW and stopping a minor problem for the Society on the one hand, and on the other hand stopping the wrong against the individual and allowing the minor problem for the Society to continue. Whose interest is more important here? Does not the Bible -- the source of all JW morals, supposedly -- say that a good Christian would leave the 99 and go in search of the 1 that strayed? Doesn't this notion suggest which is the proper thing for the JW official to do? Of course. It suggests that sacrificing individuals on the altar of organizational interests is wrong. So by their own standards, committing a deliberate wrong like this is evil. And I would think that most would consider such sacrificing evil by any reasonable standard.

    I think that any organization in which this willingness to sacrifice individuals for the sake of the goals of the leaders is evil. I think that people who initiate such policies, and those who knowingly go along with them, are evil. If not them, then who is "evil"? Do we throw out the concept of "evil human"? If so, on what basis?

    I think that the question "whose reality?" is misguided. Reality is reality, period. It may be "my reality" that I can fly, but I still can't fly to Chicago. It might be someone else's "reality" that an admitted and convicted child molester is a very nice man who is just misunderstood, but that won't protect future victims.

    A more useful notion might be "perception of reality". Jehovah's Witnesses may well perceive that their beliefs are reality, but that's not going to get them into Paradise. Nor is it going to protect children from child molesters in their midst. What you call "their reality" is fairy tale and should not be graced by a phrase that suggests even a measure of "reality", because it suggests that totally bogus ideas have a measure of validity. Falsehoods are invalid, period.

    AlanF

  • teejay
    teejay

    Alan,

    I guess I can see your point. Maybe there's little harm in labeling a You Know or a Friday with "braindead" if "abjectly refusing to think" is what you mean. There's some question that either of those two would be smart enough to understand what you meant by the slight, anyway.

    I think one has to be careful in using those terms, though, especially on a discussion board--specifically, THIS discussion board, for the reasons already outlined. There are old foes here who aren't injured in the least when the name-calling commences, and folks like YK and Friday give as well as they get. But when you switch gears by stepping into another thread, you are more than likely dealing with a whole 'nuther animal, so to speak. Everybody isn't as thick-headed as those two. Few are... thank god. It helps to leave that 'warrior mode' at the door or otherwise feelings are going to get hurt and HAVE BEEN hurt.

    Evil: one who knows that their acts will cause harm, either by deliberate commission or omission. I agree with your definition. Actually it's better than the one I found in a cursory search. The difficulty comes in being able to know without question on whom the definition fits or how stringently one wants to apply it.

    For example, what if you know that something you said to others would hurt them in some way but proceeded to say it anyway? What if you didn't know it would injure before saying it but learned after the fact that it did and you didn't do anything to make amends? You deliberately caused harm. Would that make you evil?

    I'd say "imperfect," "unkind," "arrogant" maybe but not "evil." Even among themselves, trained professionals could disagree with such a diagnosis in specific cases, and in spite of what you may likely think, I'm no trained professional. (<--- joke) Perhaps all we're talking about is degrees of evil. If so, we're ALL tinged with a little evil, the only question being "to what degree."

    It's when the discussion turns to criminals that your definition begins to fail. I don't think that most criminals are evil. Yes, peripherally they know that their crimes will injure others in some way but that is seldom the actual motive. A burglar that breaks into a house... yes they know that the owner will miss their goods, but that's really not the intent of the crime—causing emotional pain to the owners. The criminal's prime concern is selfishly motivated. Are burglars evil, one and all? I wouldn't say so.

    Your example of the JW official with the power to stop further injuries to individuals but does nothing to help them is a good one. That man may very well fit the description, especially in view of his deep personal knowledge of those who have suffered in the past or are suffering now, and I will not defend him.

    But Alan, all this talk about criminals and JW officials is a bit off the point of the original post. I was speaking of, not does "evil" exist, but should that be a term anyone should have hurled at them on this discussion board... or ANY discussion board, for that matter. Evil people along with the principle of evil does exist, but on this discussion board does anyone have enough information to call someone else "evil". I don't think so. I just don't consider it anyone's place to throw around such a defining term here, especially when you consider the fact that the target of the verbal abuse is very likely a stranger.

    Last, you said: "I think that the question "whose reality?" is misguided." Your example of one's belief they can fly and another's 'reality' that an admitted and convicted child molester is a very nice man is a appropriate. We disagree in term, not in thought. Your notion of "perception of reality" is acceptable. I concur. These "realities" truly ARE fairy tales. It tells exactly why many of us have woken up from the fairy tell and left the WTS.

    That does nothing to alter the realness of he fairy tale to those who still believe it. To them it is no fairy tale at all.

    peace,
    tj

  • TMS
    TMS

    a veritable, verbal gymnast, tj

    TMS

  • teejay
    teejay

    What a perfectly horrible thing to say, TMS!!!

  • Xena
    Xena

    It was like watching two extremely skilled swordsmen sparring...beautiful...

  • teejay
    teejay

    Thanks, Xena.

    In the "which posters impress you the most thread," detective made (as far as *I'm* concerned) the most profound acknowledgment, the same truth that made me hesitate to contribute to the thread at all, when he said:

    I'm sure there are a number of people who will never actually know that something they posted made me think, made me shudder, inspired me or made my heart go out to them. It's strange how you feel these little moments of kinship with people and they may never realize that they managed to make a connection to someone... somewhere.
    When we thoughtlessly injure others with our words, who knows what jewels of high value may be lost? Everyone has SOMETHING to offer, and for me, the greatest help very often comes from the most unlikely places.
  • Xena
    Xena

    Your welcome teejay

    I think you and AlanF gave a perfect example of how two intelligent reasoning people can disagree...discuss the issue...see each others points while not necessarily completely agreeing...and walk away without bad or hurt feelings.

    lol of course I am assuming there are no hurt feelings

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