I don't need Jesus to be a loving person (page 4)

tec

Shelby -

Lack of courage - and sometimes uncertainty about what I should do - prevents me from asking for certain things. But I do trust that one day I might have greater faith, and courage, to ask. In the meantime, I try and do the best I can with what I have been given. And we are all given different gifts - I think none are less important than another.

You use your gift to help others, out of love for Jesus, and out of love for us.

I don't want to say that you sell yourself short, because I understand what you said. You are both honest and humble (two great things - ironically enough) I love and appreciate you exactly as you are.

Tammy

PSacramento

We have absolutely no historical documents proving the existence of Jesus. We have no proof of authorship of any of the gospels. We have no credible contemporary historian to ever once mention Jesus in any historical document in the first century.

While many liek to make that argument, I notice that don't make it in regards to other historical figures.

Historical figures must be "evaluated" in terms of historical 'evidence" of their time(s), the fact that the letters of Paul were written just a few decades after Jesus's death and the Gospels written just a few decades after them and the oldest fragments we have are dates 100 years or so and the most complete writings are dated only a few hundred years after Jesus's death, that is actual VERY GOOD compared to other hsitorical figures.

PSacramento

Do you believe that without Jesus or belief in Jesus as a savior, one cannot be "saved"?

I beleive that for a CHRISTIAN, oen can't be dsaved without Jesus, yes.

But for others, it will depend on what they do and WHY they do it, but that God knows all and that a good person will be judged accordingly.

Love is a far greater act of "Christianity" than belief in Jesus.

garyneal

Okay,

I am late in returning to this thread and perhaps Fester has given up on showing us Christians another gospel but here are a few comments I have for Fester.

I understand the beliefs of Christians are offensive to others just as the beliefs of other religions are offensive. If we dig deep enough in any religion, none of them can be proven empirically. However, if something could be proven empirically, then what exactly is the definition of faith? I've stated this on another thread and I will state it here, if Islam is the right religion then I am in a world of trouble am I not? We as believers are all playing a game called, Pascal's Wager. However, I would wager that theists and atheists are acting more on faith than deists because a deist does not seem to be neither here nor there.

But I see the appeal of deism since there seems to be so many religions proclaiming their own version of God. Perhaps all of us theists should just simply adopt this chick's religion. She has all the answers concerning religions and how they come from a common source.

Sylvia Browne

tec

I don't know who that is Gary.

garyneal

That is Sylvia Browne, a psychic who started her own religion.

http://www.sylviabrowne.com/

http://www.novus.org/home/index.cfm

tec

Ah.

garyneal

I guess my point is that it appears to me that deism with its appeal does not seem to require faith.

Their is a God, but we do not know who He is.

We will die, but we do not know where we will go.

I guess theist and atheist would seem to have faith because they each seem to have answers (whether they are right or not is another manner).

In regards to Sylvia, I would not put much faith in her since she, like the WTS, has made false predictions in the past. However, to each his or her own.

Fester

Hi Shelby,

You neglected to comment on Isaiah 7:14 and it's placement in Matthew. Let's look at Isaiah 7 and 8 and you tell me why I would be wrong to assume that it's fulfillment is entirely within the context of Isaiah's text....

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 7:15 He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.

Isa 7:16 For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted.

Isa 7:17 The LORD will bring upon you and upon your people and upon your father's house such days as have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah--the king of Assyria."

First, Ahaz is being told that YHWH will give HIM a sign... The sign is for AHAZ... agree? Which two kings did Ahaz dread in Jesus' day 700 years later? Here's the fulfillment EXACTLY as told..... Isa 8:3 And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. Then the LORD said to me, "Call his name Maher-shalal-hash-baz; Isa 8:4 for before the boy knows how to cry 'My father' or 'My mother,' the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria." The true Christian response from most theologians is that it's a "dual prophecy". It's the only explanation they can offer to try and explain away the simple fact that Isaiah had a son in the next chapter fitting the Assyrian king's demise as told in chapter 7!! Now, concerning the authorship of the gospels.... Who is Luke? As far as we know, only the letters attributed to Paul mention him. Luke isn't one of the 12 disciples, so exactly who is he? Now... just to show you that Paul and the gospels are definitely separate works and Jesus in the NT definitely said that he REJECTS PAUL.... 2Ti 1:15 You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes. Here in his letter to Timothy, Paul mentions that "ALL who are in Asia (Ephesus is in Asia) turned away from me" Rev 2:1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: 'The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. Rev 2:2 "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. Jesus congratulates the Ephesian Asian church for rejecting Paul.... How do we know this? Because there are only 12 apostles of the lamb according to John, John by the way NEVER mentions Paul in any of his texts.... Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. There are only 12 apostles of the lamb... Paul is not one of them.

PSacramento

Fester, John doesn't mention Paul, but Peter does, you remember Peter right? the "rock" of Christ?

You have shown how easy it is to take scripture, out of context and twist it to me what you want it to.

The JW's would be proud ;)

I don't need Jesus to be a loving person

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