Help deconstructing argument :)

by leo999 12 Replies latest jw experiences

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  leo999

  Hi , this is a part of an email sent by my bro to a 'friend ' The ' friend ' needs some help in pulling his arguments apart . Any takers ? :)) Btw , the 'friend' is a pretend Bible study , ex catholic :))

  Thanks

  Leo999

  You still ask about the 144000 J . So I was doing some research for you, and trying to think of some things to tell you, just now, while it was fresh in my mind. - I can understand that all this is a bit new for you, and different to Christendom’s ideas.

  To understand better I always like to look at the timeline. I think you accept that the first person to go to heaven was Jesus because no scriptures from the Old Testament talked about heavenly life. So that means that the concept was new to Jesus early disciples. Remember about Lazarus, -how he was dead 3 days, Mary said I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day. (So for him resurrection wasn’t automatic. -to contrast with the ideas of Christendom- the ‘immortal soul’ idea -that you can’t die.) Lazarus did die; -so why didn’t he go to heaven then? , And why didn’t Jesus say that he had gone to heaven (as he was a good man). The answer is because Jesus hadn’t yet died as ‘first fruits’ from the dead. -So heaven isn’t automatic for all good people (as Christendom says). And only those who died after Jesus could go to heaven.

  As for the verses in John (6:52-71) -the question is, whom was he actually talking to? The disciples believed in what Jesus said -but the rest went off stumbled at what he said. (Vs. 70 says “I chose 12…” -so clearly many there present actually weren’t chosen to receive the heavenly calling -but apparently only the 12. So heaven wasn’t automatic for all. So the point is that Jesus was in reality only speaking to his true disciples, -not to the people in general, -both the crowd then, and millions in Christendom today. .

  But many in Christendom have clung to this idea, -without qualifying in their lifestyles, to qualify to actually gain that privilege. (EG. Do the people engaging in wars, etc, and all the other evil things done today in society, actually think they really going to go to heaven?? When God condemns these sorts of things. (1 Cor6: 9-11) Hardly!)- Yet 1 billion people take (or should take) communion!

  Did the sister refer to the ‘Reasoning’ book? -Just to quote a point …(around p166)

  Matt. 25:31-33, 40, 46: “When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. . . . The king will say to them [the sheep], ‘Truly I say to you, To the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ And [the goats] will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones [the sheep] into everlasting life.” (Notice that these “sheep” are not the same as the King’s brothers, who are “partakers of the heavenly calling.” [Heb. 2:10–3:1]

  But these sheep like ones would be alive during the time that Christ was on his throne and during the time when some of his “brothers” would still be experiencing hardship on earth.)

  As for the number being literal … Is thenumber144,000merelysymbolic?

  The answer is indicated by the fact that, after mention of the definite number 144,000, Revelation 7:9 refers to “a great crowd, which no man was able to number.” If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the “great crowd.” Viewing the number as literal agrees with Jesus’ statement at Matthew 22:14 regarding the Kingdom of the heavens: “There are many invited, but few chosen.”

  Do thoseofthe“greatcrowd”referredtoatRevelation7:9, 10 alsogotoheaven?

  Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000, that they are “bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion.—Rev. 14:1-3.

  The description of them as “standing before the throne and before the Lamb” indicates, not necessarily a location, but an approved condition. (Compare Revelation 6:17; Luke 21:36.) The expression “before the throne” (Greek, e·no´pi·ontouthro´nou; literally, “in sight of the throne”) does not require that they be in heaven. Their position is simply “in sight” of God, who tells us that from heaven he beholds the sons of men.—Ps. 11:4; compare Matthew 25:31-33; Luke 1:74, 75; Acts 10:33.

  Rev. 20:6: “They will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.” (Also Daniel 7:27)

  1 Cor. 6:2: “Do you not know that the holy ones will judge the world?”

  Rev. 5:10: “You made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over [“on,” RS,KJ,Dy; “over,” AT,Da,Kx,CC] the earth.” (The same Greek word and grammatical structure is found at Revelation 11:6. There RS,KJ,Dy, etc., all render it “over.”)

  I just cut and paste the above from that book, to help you. This seems to be the bit that is relevant, but the whole book, is excellent to cover these deep points. J I hope I have sort of covered most of your points. Some of this will fit together in your mind better, later on as more of the fundamental truths get clearer in your mind, -even if you cant fully grasp all of these details right now. Remember that Jesus disciples often, at the time, didn’t understand all what Jesus was saying, but later on did
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  Black Sheep

  What was the original question?

  Did he answer it?

  Or did he just write screeds about a closely related subject without tackling the original question?
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  leo999

  Hi Black Sheep ,

  This was the question .

  Thanks for info about 144,000. I know you'll know more about it because you are one of the elders. Im still looking into it, but its difficult to see things a different way when you've been taught something else for so long. Revelation is one of the books I never read..so no wonder Ive never seen it before..lol. Its a book or symbols isnt it? Does that mean the number is a symbol too? I am wondering why there would only be such a small number that would go to heaven out of all the people who have ever lived. Can I ask you...( here I go again)....about the number? Its to help me get it clearer in my mind. The lady that comes to me said that there are only a small amount of people who take the bread and wine because they have this feeling inside that they just know for definite they will go to heaven. I can sort of understand this. I always felt that I would go to heaven myself. But what I dont really understand is why no-one else eats it. I was taught in the Chapel that Jesus died for all of the world and we should all have communion. I spent ages trying to find a verse that I read. Im not good at remembering. I got it eventually though. Its in the gospels in Lukes book. its ch6 vs53-54.
  I looked it up in the Jehovahs witness bible and Jesus said that..unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life and I shall resurrect him at the last day.
  
  Does that mean that everyone should take it?.... because Jesus used the word 'unless'? He was talking about people he would resurrect. The sister told me this is what you believe, that people who die will be resurrected back on to the earth if they die. So were these people to take the communion too and not just the ones who will go to heaven?
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  Mad Sweeney

  Just a few points because I'm pressed for time.

  About Jesus being the first one resurrected to heaven. This can be refuted by Jesus' own words. His story about "the rich man and Lazarus" in Luke chapter 16 mentions Abraham being in heaven. The JWs will say that it was just a story Jesus was using to make a point, but there is NO SCRIPTURAL reason to believe that it wasn't based on common beliefs of his audience; they say it because it conflicts with their preconceived doctrine.

  About the 144k being literal because, " If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the “great crowd," that doesn't logically follow. In fact, because the great crowd is NOT a fixed number, then it is MORE LIKELY that the 144K is NOT FIXED literally either.

  And lastly, about the great crowd being in heaven. Revelation 19:1 says the great crowd is IN HEAVEN and chapter 7 places them before the throne, which in ALL OTHER instances are interpreted as being in heaven, too.
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  StoneWall

  A good place to start is always with Ephesians 4:4-6

  I'll quote it from their own NWT: "One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which

  YOU were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all

  and in all."

  Ask them if according to this scripture there is one hope, why at memorial time they speak of a heavenly hope and a

  earthly hope? Is that considered one hope or two?

  Next point, if they are going to use this line of reasoning that I've quoted you on;

  If the number 144,000 were not literal it would lack meaning as a contrast to the “great crowd.”

  Then it should hold true that it would lack meaning for Rev. chapter 7 to list the 144,000 coming from the 12 tribes of Israel and then

  contrasting that with the great crowd coming from all the earth.

  Either the 144,000 is symbolic and the tribes represented are symbolic, or the 144,000 is literal and the tribes they come from are literal.

  You can't pick and choose part of it as being literal and then say the other part is symbolic.
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  notverylikely

  Another point is that the scripture they like to use to get the 144K number. Part of that says they 144K are virgins. That part they consider symbolicm but the number literal. Why the split?
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  Hadit

  Hello – a few more points:

  Jesus died ‘once for ALL TIME’ this encompasses past, present and future. As humans we are bound by time – Jesus is not. We can only affect our present and our future – not ALL time.

  As pointed out above – you either take the 144,000 as symbolic or literal – if you take it as literal you MUST take the rest as literal too: they are Israelite men from specific tribes, they are virgins, they have followed the lamb, no falsehood in their mouths. They are ALL on the EARTH prior to a tribulation that is being held back for their sakes.

  Then AFTER these things is an unnumbered great crowd out of ALL nations, tribes and peoples and tongues in HEAVEN before the throne and in his temple. WT says they are only ‘before the throne’ but still in on the earth. However, if you note that one of the elders in HEAVEN questions “who are they and where do they come from” why would he ask who they are and where they came from if he was looking down on the earth? It would be a rather redundant question.

  Looking at it from a symbolic point of view loses no meaning in the numbers – 144,000 is still a smaller number in contrast to a great crowd which no man was able to number. As well, nowhere does it say that the 144,000 is NOT part of that great crowd – as this great crowd encompasses ALL nations.

  As it was said earlier – the bible states only ONE hope.

  I hope this makes sense.

  Hadit J
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  StoneWall

  Hadit very nice viewpoints and illustration regarding the redundant question of asking where these from the great crowd

  come from if they still on the Earth.

  leo999 another good scripture to use to debunk the idea of who the 144,000 rule over is Luke 22:28-30

  Ask a J.W. who the 144k will rule over and judge and right away they will say over the great crowd on Earth.

  Then quote them the sciptures in Luke 22:28-30 “However, YOU are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials;

  and I make a covenant with YOU, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that YOU may eat

  and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel."

  (notice how this scripture says they will judge the twelve tribes of Israel. So if the 144,000 are "spritual Israel" that

  would mean they are judging each other and not the great crowd.)
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  Black Sheep

  I think you accept that the first person to go to heaven was Jesus because no scriptures from the Old Testament talked about heavenly life. So that means that the concept was new to Jesus early disciples.

  2 Kings 2:11 (King James Version) And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

  This is contradicted by Jesus who is reputed to have said, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.", at John 3:13.

  Ask him....."Where did Elijah go according to the old testament? Where did Elijah go according to Jesus?

  You can play Bible ping pong with these ratbags all day. Don't. Keep them discussing the scripture or topic that you want to discuss. Their main tactic is to pull a scripture out of their repertoire that they feels contradicts your scripture and try to divert your attention away from your scripture or topic. Failing that they will insinuate that your understanding of your scripture must be faulty because otherwise it would contradict their scripture, and the Bible is the innerrant word of God, so that is not possible.

  Is the Bible really the innerrant word of God? If it isn't, you are both wasting your time arguing scripture anyway. Who was telling porkies? The writer of 2 Kings or the writer of John? It could be either, or both, but it takes mind games that I can't be bothered playing to convince myself that they are both true.

  Cheers

  Chris
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  leo999

  Thanks every one , some really good points and some I didnt think of before . i will be sure to pass this on to my helpful friend :)

  Leo 999